Great Western Coffee Shop

Looks like the 175s are coming to Laira plus the two simulators. The 158s at Exeter to go to Bristol.

GWR to get all the class 175s.  It be great to see them in service they are good units.

GWR recruiting engineers for the class 175s.

Heard 1 unit is due to make its way down to Laira  later next month

Yet more hand me downs and cast offs being used by the West side of the business.

Statement of fact.

The part of the former SW&W which eventually became Wessex Trains is the only TOC from 1994 that has never had any brand new rolling stock built for them. EVER!

Other companies cast offs, 150/1s and 175s.
Redeployed stock Turbos.
And the IETs on the Cardiff WofE services which they were never designed for or originally planned to be used on.

We are where we are.  The long term replacements for the 150s, 158s and 166s still look to be five years away.  If the 175s do come, that will help in the meantime.  Not a cheap option but what else can be done?   The only option available right now not to use IETs on the Cardiff - Penzances is to withdraw much of the service because, currently, there is nothing else to run it.  No-one wants that.

The 175s - if they come - will allow the IETs to go back to main line work and also allow much else too.

Personal view - to me the age of a train does not matter.

If it is reliable to run an appropriate advertised timetable, safe, clean, comfortable and affordable that suits me.

As we’re in the rumour mill (despite 175s actually coming so not a rumour),according to a GWR employee friend the mess room rumour is Penzance to Cardiff will be split at Exeter once the 175s arrive.
175s working Exeter to Penzance, Falmouth branch and Newquay branch.

I was - err - thinking of moving this thread from the Rumour Mill into a public area - the "Rumour Mill" was set up for when we saw just a whiff of smoke and suspected a frame and clearly it's more than that now.

Suggestion - unless anyone objects I will move this tomorrow (Sunday 8th) morning - I see nothing that should be a secret, nor could it it now be suggested that the forum is spreading significant rumours; sure, there are some things to be confirmed and like 769s to Gatwick or new trains from Cardiff to Portsmouth, well founded plans can change.

I'm concerned that GWR top brass are saying the deal hasn't yet been agreed by the DfT.   

It's a lot more than a rumour so I agree, Graham.  As we've heard from several posters, GWR are putting arrangements in place for the 175s in the expectation that the deal will be agreed.

GWR are recruiting class 175 specific staff on their recruitment page, which makes me think they’re a pretty much done deal

As readers of the Coffee Shop forum will have seen, I've got some serious 'previous' for moving topics - but purely in the interests of housekeeping and ease of future reference. ::)

However, in this case, if grahame is happy to do it, I'll leave this one to him.  That way, if it even possibly turns out to be the wrong call, he'll get the blame, not me. ;D

CfN  ;D

I have given 24 hours notice - purely because it's a move from a restricted to a private area to a public one and so everyone who's posted needs an opportunity to object.    Whichever of us wakes first in the morning, Chris.

It is a done deal, just being held up by “red tape”.

GWR should get their first look at a 175 very soon at Landore. 

175101 was taken there the other day I believe it's the last one due to go there

Topic moved


I have tried to put an algorithm to measure those factors and how they interact at

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=29118.0

Reported elsewhere that the 175s are indeed on their way and will be in service from May:

https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/027591-2024

That's notice of an intention to sign, not actually contracting for it, and has been known about for a while. We are hoping to find notice of actual contract signing.

It's a notice to explain why the contract hasn't been put out to tender, as is normally required for new kit, rather than "I'll get back to you when I find my pen". I'm not aware that it caused any cries of "Foul!", so hopefully it will happen soon.

If I may clarify.   The notice referred to on the find-tender service was issued in August and as I read it takes the form of a request to tender.  In the public finance sphere, you can't just go out and buy something without asking around for a best price to get good / best value.  I personally became aware of this August document a week or two ago, but did not report it here on the forum - yes, it was reported elsewhere in the rail / social media, but my view when I saw it was that it did no more than confirm that HMG and GWR were looking at the option and asking prices, which we knew anyway.

It contains several things at once, since it also reports that the terms of a contract have been agreed between the parties (date of conclusion 29 August 2024) and that this is (was) followed by a standstill period to wait for objections and:

Now those "internal governance approvals" will, I presume, include checking for compatibility with their other contracts - and most importantly the current NRC with DfT. Assuming no news means that process hasn't yet finished, I guess that DfT are being difficult - for example there's still an industry-wide review of the financials going on so it has to wait for that.

(This did come up on the Churchward thread (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=28291.msg352584#msg352584) earlier, but really belongs here.)

It also starts with the phrase "Awarded contract", right at the top of the page, and goes on to include the fairly unambiguous Section V ("Section V. Award of contract/concession"):


which I take, perhaps daringly, to mean "yes, a contract has been awarded". Compare, for example, to this one (https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/033834-2024?origin=SearchResults&p=1) which begins "Opportunity" and doesn't yet have a Section V.

But parsing this contract notice is probably a bit moot given that the First Rail high-up who posts over on RailUK spoke a couple of days ago of "when the 175 units arrive", not "if".

It's all legalese, of course, so words are not chosen to convey meaning (not to us outsiders, anyway). But "award" of a contract is choosing one of the competing suppliers for the contract. In this case there was only one supplier, but the steps in the process and the terminology don't reflect that. The Cabinet Office has a guide to this stuff (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/procurement-act-2023-guidance-documents-procure-phase/guidance-contract-award-notices-and-standstill-html), which says:

175002 arrived a Laira yesterday.

175002 left Ely Tuesday at 1306 (2hours late) hauled between two diesel locos maximum speed 30mph did a tour of England and arrived at Laira  Wednesday at 0735 on time. I suppose the long route was for the speed restriction.

Video of it on the Cornwall Railway Society website

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/latest-input--news--old-pictures-etc

It certainly was a bit of a mystery tour! I guess it was the best route for keeping out of the way of everybody else.

Three car 175 arrived today at Laira 97 minutes early so missed a chance to see it on Dawlish cams.

Another 175 arrived at Laira this morning 90 minutes early after leaving Ely nearly 4 hours late!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vd7TWrbvXE

175009 2car was the train

That was another tour of England! Will they still need two Class 37s when they go into service?

Supposed to be about speed restrictions. Seeing the youtube video I'd like to know what speed it was going.

Another thing that surprises me is only one unit at a time will take ages. They have moved two units before.

175007 left Ely yesterday. Got as far as Leicester when it was realised they had the wrong unit, 175010, which has axle problems.

Apparently still at Leicester in the goods yard.

175010 left Leicester goods yard Tuesday and is back at Ely.

175007 has now left Ely today on it's way to Laira arriving tomorrow.

Apparently they have modifications to be done at Laira including a new drivers seat.

I'm getting increasingly doubtful that the units will be in service before the end of the summer.

It’s looking that way sadly. I guess more time for HST fans to ride the Castles.

Although it does not really affect those of us in the Thames Valley, that is disappointing. Is it a driver training issue, do they need repair?

I'd imagine lots of repair. When Alstom looked after the fleet at Chester they were in fairly good nick. But a bean counter decided it was too expensive and put the maintenance out to tender. And the new firm, who I believe were Cheap As F*** didn't put as much effort into repairs or maintenance. After a few engines caught fire the fleet were slowly taken out of traffic as new rolling stock was delivered. Add in the amount of time the units have been in storage as well.

So I'd think that a lot of work is required.

The correct name being CAF (Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles), the Spanish train manufacturer.

At a Local forum this afternoon, GWR were insistent that the Castles will be withdrawn on the current expected date, so it looks as though the 175s will start...

Which is May?

Or will more IET’s or other stock simply be drafted in for the interim?

"More" IETs? Or just stripping them out elsewhere meaning more short forms and overcrowding?

‘More’ as in more from the existing fleet.

An important distinction. Robbing from Peter to pay Paul.

Absolutely.

Or, as discussed, other trains will be shortformed.  There are still some trains running around as MULTIPLE units (IETs, Turbos and sprinters) - and it would be possible though unpleasant to inadequate - to provide shorter trains on some services.

If it was November or January in South West then might be acceptable.  But in May as busy tourist season starts is not a logical time to cut formations.   

Of course there is Glastonbury (25-29 June) when other services have been cut in past to provide trains.   Not that GWR keeps extra stock for its 140+ days annually of busy trains (Cheltenham festival, Henley Regatta, Cornwall summer school holidays, Bath markets, Cardiff rugby specials etc

Do we know whether GWR (or whoever is responsible for procuring these trains) have even signed a contract for the 175's yet?

If they haven't then I guess we can't be sure that these trains will ever arrive, especially as the Dft/Treasury/Government are looking to save money.

I was informed at this Local Panel meeting on Friday that there would be no delays in their introduction. So presumably.

 3 two cars and one three car 002/007/009/114 now at Laira

 7 two car and 15 three car 001/003-006/010/011 & 101-113/115/116 at Ely
 008 possible also at Ely or at Alstom

 There could easily be another 7 or 8 at Laira by the end of April.

Now duly added to the Coffee Shop forum's 'abbreviations & acronyms' page. ;)

But will the railway staff version be added please?

Castle sets only run 2 diagrams a day at present. Shortforming elsewhere to cover 2 castle sets isn’t going to cause a massive short form problem. It’s not unusual for a pair of 150s to turn up on a castle diagram at the moment.
Cardiff to Penzance I’m led to believe are being cut back to Cardiff to Exeter and Cardiff to Weston super mare from May.

Might this be a forerunner of making all Cornish services start/stop at Exeter St Davids I wonder?
Hopefully not.

Your use of the word "all" is interesting.  Are you wondering about the Paddington to Penzance services going no further than Plymouth?   With all the depot work at Longrock I would be surprised ... though there could be a case for morning IETs to start from Penzance as they come "off shed" but then the IETs that start from London turning at Plymouth or Exeter allowing the high speed stock to be used on high speed lines ... final services of the day carrying on to Penzance and servicing at Longrock.

The only reason I can see them doing that is to stop uncoupling 2 five car units at Plymouth which is probably the most efficient use of the stock than using a nine car from Paddington-Penzance which most passengers like.

If they do stop them at Exeter then platform 6 is going to be tied up unless they have a short turn round time.

175001 and 175003 were dragged from Ely to Wolverton works yesterday. Presumably for modifications and painting??

The four 175s at Laira must be enough for training purposes.

Official - at last (just Saturday I was warned it wasn't yet signed off!!)

There were 27 units, I think a couple of vehicles (from different units) have had accidents so guessing one unit will be a reform and the two vehicles will be spare parts doners

Here's the GWR press release (https://news.gwr.com/news/class-175-trains-to-help-great-western-railway-improve-reliability-across-the-network):

I wonder how long they will stay ... will there be a repaint program ... how will liveries go under GBR?

Until Project Churchward comes to fruition I would imagine.

I would expect GWR vinyls but no full livery change given the amount of time the GWR direct award has to run.

I believe it's 26 units as 175008 has suffered considerable damage i believe things one unit that caught fire while being operated by tfw.

I can speak from.experience as a regular traveller on them that they are lovely units especially after the interior refurbishment done by tfw

Hmm.  :-\

Is there actually any need to remove vinyls, or change liveries on trains, or uniforms on staff?

They will still be the same stations, trains and staff - it's just the 'behind the scenes direction' that will change, so far as the wider travelling public will know.

It would be extremely wasteful to de-vinyl, repaint fleets of trains and refit thousands of railway staff with new uniforms - to prove what?  That doing that will 'make things better'?  ::)

I'm not usually one to advocate change for change's sake, but some rebranding is inevitable and should be done quickly, but not from TfW to GWR so close to the end of the franchise as we know it. The Big Bang will come as the first services are readied under our new transport flagship, Great British Railways.

The first step is new uniforms for public-facing staff to show that there is a difference, even if it's the only sign of one. That will have to happen one day, so may as well be done soon.  British companies should make and supply all the kit.

For rolling stock, prudence should over-ride eagerness. I'm sure we call all manage with the trains still in the old livery, as we have many times before, until a need for change arises. Relatively small things such as safety cards, maps, displayed posters etc can be stuck over the previous livery until refurb time comes around, with exterior vinyl being replaced as and when trains are due for a refresh. For stations, the same sort of minimalist approach will suffice until major overhaul becomes necessary - after all, it's a railway station. Nobody is going to confuse it with anything else just because it still has an old company logo somewhere.

If my own experience of such matters happening in government are anything to go by, the uniforms will be issued first to anyone working all day every day in windowless offices on the uppermost floors of a high-rise office block. They will have been ordered from Temu or Shein, and because they can't be exchanged in the case of minor cosmetic issues because someone at DfT didn't read the small print, the government may find it cheaper to change the name of the organisation to match the new "GRATE BRITTISH RAILWAY" corporate dress. A station newly refurbished or with the paint just dry after a billion-pound rebuild will be the first to be repainted in the wrong colour, followed by the newest train on the network. After months of cancellations because of more trains than usual being repainted, a strike will be announced in time for the start of the World Cup.

According to the article in rail magazine  175008 will not be moving toGWR but will be stripped for spares and scrapped.

Castle HSTs to be withdrawn from service as well as some class150s

From Plymouth Live (https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/local-news/new-gwr-trains-set-transform-10018661)


Confirming good news - but will it really "transform South West travel"?

In the breathless world of shock horror probe Reach local newspapers (or perhaps some cheap AI they now use to write this stuff?) - it does, as it will (partly) replace stories on 40 year old trains breaking down in Devon!

BTW, I agree with CfN on the repaint/vinyl issue. All they need is a GWR logo on the side for the time being, much in the way the C2C stock drafted in at the height of the cracking IET crisis did, or the Thames Trains liveried Turbos acquired FGW Link logos for a couple of years after termination of the former's franchise. Spend the time and money saved on more maintenance of the rest of the current fleet.

Not exactly a transformation: the doors being at the ends of the carriages are welcome though.

It may be just me: 1/3  2/3 doors combined with longer distance travel is a bit meh: e.g. on runs such as Cardiff and up the Marches it feels as if TfW are using the likes of 197s for the wrong purpose.

Mark

Yes, I think that is sensible and kind of what I meant in my earlier post.

The exteriors should be in a decent enough state as they had not long gone from Arriva to TfW livery and the TfW one is very neutral anyway.

As for transformational qualities?  We all know what we’re going to get.  A mid-life train with very good interior layouts, but relatively low capacity and slightly questionable reliability.

Quick question, as they are expected to run Exeter - Penzance... how Dawlish proof are they?

No roof mounted equipment, so should be OK.

They coped between Llanelli and Ferryside where they have a sea wall on parts of thw eoute

https://youtu.be/Or7ht9527LI

175002 at Newton Abbot 23 June 2025 on it's third training run reversing in platform 3. The previous two had reversed in platform 1/

More training runs today between Plymouth and Newton Abbot 5D01, et seq..

They will have to be put in GWR colours, and I'd guess they will choose to vinyl them as its the cheapest option.

Legally they can't run in their TfW livery.   

GWR colours - or just have the operator name changed?   We have had all sorts of trains running around in wrong liveries over the years - most recently some 387s in C2C livery, for example ... and for many years the morning Melksham to Swindon train was operated by a SWT unit.   153s at one time came in a variety of paint jobs such as Central Trains and Casper. Is there something difference in the legals this time around?

From a GWR social media feed yesterday


Will this be addressing the fundamental problem of staff shortages?   Do the  extra 175 units which used to run in Wales come with extra drivers who also used to drive in Wales?

Noting it's in red and white.

..........and if so, do those drivers "legally" have to be painted a different colour and/or wear different clothes to allow them to drive the trains?  ::)

No, they will be in GWR colours.  387’s were sub-leased, same as the SWT units, Casper carried no identifiable operator livery whereas the 175 fleet is operated by GWR. 

I don’t have the exact reason, just GWR have been told they run in TfW colours.  That could be a TfW or DafT stipulation, or that the future plan will see 175s working to Cardiff.

There isn’t a staff shortage.  They have the numbers, they just aren’t fully trained in traction and routes!.

It's certainly a daft stipulation, whoever originated it.

Possibly to do with the fact that Wales services aren't coming under GBR/DfT/UK Government, but staying with the Welsh Government?

The 002/007/009/114 are at Laira for training. There are 3 or 4 at Wolverton for refurbishment that will include livery. All the rest are at Ely until there is room at Wolverton.

According to Modern Railways-
https://x.com/modern_railways/status/1939627842465149298?s=61&t=VlafMC5gF9tidw36b1Y8JQ

This video is 2 months old.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCXp9FPUm5Q&t=1010s

They must be doing something to them.

I know a few have moved from storage near Ely, to Wolverton.  And some have been there many weeks now. 

I am guessing they are being repainted, getting a mechanical service/overhaul and possibly a light refurbishment, but seems ages that some have been there, so does anyone know when first one in GWR spec (as in planned passenger spec, not crew training spec) is expected to be ready, and delivered (or driven) to Laira.

So are the ones now at Wolverton there for assessment of the scope of work?

175106/112 went yesterday to Wolverton.

175001/003/006/011/107/108 are already there; some since April.

One must be ready for Laira by now unless they are waiting to take 2/3 in one go.

There is a contract out to tender (https://www.find-tender.service.gov.uk/Notice/030994-2025) for "Laira Depot Enhancements as part of the Class 175 introduction". This is very briefly described as:

Submissions have closed, and the award date is set as 30th September 2025, so you can't even see the more detailed documents now. How much space there is at Laira before, during, or after this programme I have no idea, but it must make some difference!

(I thought I'd seen this posted already, but can't find it.)

Last time I looked there were 2 very overgrown sidings alongside the line on north side.   There was also a very short depot building suitable for locos and power cars.   This seems to face opposite direction to many of the sidings in the open.    There wasn't really a building suitable for 3car DMUs where bogie or engine swaps and similar maintenance could be done quickly and efficiently.  There is a long building for IETs (which I suspect has no spare capacity for a DMU fleet as it is quite narrow)

Bogie changes can be done in the purpose built shed at Exeter. I don't think the lifting road jacks have ever been used.

(http://[url=https://flic.kr/p/2kmVXZ9][img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50776330326_79b9ec6462.jpg)[/url]exeter depot lifting road. (https://flic.kr/p/2kmVXZ9) by Robert (https://www.flickr.com/photos/revupminster/), on Flickr[/img]

I cannot get the image to display??

I can see three sheds with tracks into them - one short (72 m, roads 1-4), one longer (112 m, roads 5-6) and the "HST shed" (240 m, roads 7-10). So it looks as if the two smaller sheds, apart from road 1 that perhaps is no longer used, are being renovated for the 175s.

A three car class 175 is about 71m long, so only just fits in those 72m roads, although not sure if could close door and provide a clear walkway around end.

Pairs of two car units would fit in the 2 longer 112m roads, but wouldn't be able to handle 5car (117m long), or 6car (142m long) without splitting into two trains, which adds time and complexity.  It is of course common practice to run early/late empty trains to/from depot as pairs of units. 

Anyone know what latest is with 175s

There were at least 4 at Laira couple of months ago for familiarity and training.  Another 8 units (maybe more) have gone to Wolverton, but seemed to have disappeared into a black hole, as none have come out.

Doesn't seem to be any urgency, which seems inconsistent with rumours of HSTs ending in 16 weeks at December timetable change.

Things could fall into place quickly - it does happen and a whole batch could escape from Wolverton.

OR ... by reducing Exmouth -> Paignton services to 2 carriages and remaining Portsmouthb-> Cardiff trains over 3 carriages to 2 or 3 carriages, they may get away with it over midwinter.  Could even use the 230 on the Greenford Branch.

There are at least 8 at Wolverton of two and three cars. Enough to replace the HSTs.
Training has been taking place between Plymouth and Newton Abbot using the un-refurbished units.
The 158s at Exeter should be off to Bristol replaced by some 165s instead of coming down from Bristol every day.
A couple of 150s are needed for Newquay.
Very unlikely they will reduce the Paignton-Exmouth to two cars if they can avoid it.

OK, it's a long time ago, but I visited Torbay a lot from 1999 to 2005 and services to Exmouth were notorious for being overcrowded, especially during term-time.

I would ... suspect ... that there may be a burst-out of quite a few 175s from Wolverton just-in-time - perhaps the security there compared to Laira will allow them to enter traffic smart and with only official paintwork.   Having said which, I would suspect that the powers-that-be view of acceptable overcrowding may differ from the public view.   I remember back at about the time this forum started, an FGW manager who had transferred from Wessex Trains explained to me the very high cost of adding a carriage to a peak train for just a single morning journey when declining for FGW to do anything to alleviate the problem.  Bad old days, perhaps ...

I recall commenting that a 2-carriage train full to bursting with angry passengers is more profitable/sustainable than a three carriage train with everyone having a seat.

I would hope that, as we speak, skilled technicians are refurbishing 175s at Wolverton in preparation for a triumphant procession to their new home, ready for newly trained drivers to use across the region, whilst the units used for training go off to be spruced up. Alstom have just announced the signing of a maintenance agreement for the next 8 years, according to this press release (https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2025/8/alstom-signs-eight-year-services-contract-uk-support-gwr-class-175-fleet-reintroduction)

Does that still apply, as nowadays if can't get on, can claim delay repay if delayed (or do they not take the cost of delays into account).

I have seen 2coach 158s on Portsmouth-Cardiff lose 20 minutes by Bath or Bristol, due to extended dwell at stations, and as most of the local tickets wouldn't be advances (with auto delay repay) that is an awful lot of manual accounting needed to reallocate the delay repay cost back into that short formation.

I suspect it is based on selective inclusion of costs

HISTORIC - but thinking back and to inform discussion, this was the logic:

If it costs £100,000 to hire a carriage for a year and it's only needed (was the case in 2006) for the 12 minutes from Keynsham into Temple Meads on 240 days per annum, it has to generete an extra income of £416 per day. At the fares of the time that worked out as over 100 extra fares to be collected from people who would not otherwise have travelled. FGW as it was believed that whilst they would lose some passengers due to overcrowding, it was far short of 100 every day.

Back then there was mainly an hourly service from Paignton to Exmouth. The half hour service to Exmouth by a Barnstaple- Exmouth train. There were extra trains in the rush hour. Oddly the Torre return school traffic was served by a Paignton-London HST stopping there

The big change for Paignton was when an additional shuttle was added between Paignton and Newton Abbot funded by the European Union and marked as such in the timetable to make a half hour service between peak.

These trains were taken over by GWR as passenger numbers increased to make a half hour Paignton-Exmouth service viable by stopping the Barnstaple train at Exeter St James then running to the reversing siding. This didn't last long (3 months?) as it was not a safe to terminate a train there and Exeter Central became the tipping out point, then empty to Exmouth Junction siding (now called East siding).

It's a funny old argument from the railway, that. Is the practice of operating trains on a system with high fixed costs and then, as your trains are leased, you need to pitch provision at a level that on a daily basis is capacity constrained... is that an an approach that's laced with unintended consequences?

Mark

I think first 4 actually went to Wolverton in second half of March, so approaching 6 months.   But I don't think Wolverton did very much (if anything) with them for first few weeks of having them.

No idea what they have subsequently done, added a bit of new paint or vinyl perhaps

A 175 is due to come down from Wolverton tomorrow under what looks like it's own power. I'll be watching Dawlish Cams at 1603 if it runs.

Should pass Bath Spa at 13:55

Rumoured to be unit 175 003 and will be first time a GWR liveried one appears, unless it is in some new GBR colours

Having just watched it pass Watford Junction on Railcam it is just in its old TfW livery, but unbranded.

175114+175009 on it's way to Penzance from Laira. May return to Laira by returning as far as Newton Abbot before reversing back.

Although the first leg - Plymouth to Newton Abbot and return was cancelled!

It did manage Newton Abbot this afternoon. These two trains have been at Laira for some time. Another one tomorrow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0U-WSbXSVE

Penzance

175002+175009 doing the Penzance trip today. Both yesterday and today involved two trips to Penzance.

Apologies for asking what is probably a daft question, but I can see that they look relatively modern; presumably they are actually an improvement (from a passenger's perspective) over what they are replacing?

I've only been on a 175 in Wales at Newport and it seemed alright.
The first job is to replace the Castle HSTs which passengers might think of as a downgrade seating wise. It also frees up 800s for other work.
Second job is to replace the 158s at Exeter which are needed for Bristol services. Passengers won't notice a lot of difference but will be pleased when a 5 car 175 turns up at Barnstaple and Okehampton gets a 3 car regularly. Okehampton Parkway should increase passenger usage even taking into account those who transfer from Okehampton.
Thirdly it frees up a couple of 150s for use on the new Newquay services and will have to soldier on.
Exeter could have more turbos for the Exmouth-Paignton. There have been up to 5 running even now.

They're a bit like a cross between a 180 (Adelante) and a 156 (one of the better Sprinters), just without the flambée effect common to the Adelantes. I wouldn't say they're enormously different from the 158s. I used them fairly frequently when Arriva Trains Wales ran them on the Marches line and they're decent, comfortable enough trains.

With entrances into vestibules at the carriage ends, windows ok and interiors appropriately lit they made for a pleasant journey with TfL. Recollections of cheerful good-natured sociable passengers of all ages too, despite the services often being capacity constrained.

Mark

Just give me "anything" safe and with enough space that runs 98% of the time or better.   Class 142, 150, 158, 165, 201, 802 - don't mind.  Please not single 121 or 153 as they don't have enough space ...

They were good for legroom, and quite comfortable, although the seat back angle sometimes made my neck ache if I dozed for too long! Not sure if that's unique to me!

Although end-doored they worked reasonably well on stoppers (door cycles *felt* slightly nippier than on a 158 or 153) as long as not too crowded, when of course a 150 or Turbo works better for dwell times. I didn't often travel on them with luggage but IIRC luggage racks not as good as on a 158 or HST - in common with a lot of newer stock.

Lack of inter-unit gangway could be a problem if working in multiple, especially on a route with short platforms or request stops; are they to be paired on peak Barnstaples? Probably wouldn't be able major issue on main line duties. I imagine the same issue arises when a 5-car Turbo formation serves Dilton Marsh, but at least that's a one-off stop.

The Modern Railways article on GWR based on Mark Hopwood comments says will be 5car 175s on some busy Barnstaple trains.

But experience tells me that 5car workings, formed of a 2car and a 3car can be prone to ending up as 4car or even 3car (or occasionally 6car) fairly often in Bristol area.    Operationally having 2 types combined to form a train seems to be too hard to do on a regular basis, unless you have both sizes available in a siding at start point.

The lack of standardisation of coupling is, I think, something of a nightmare - where "multiple" units cannot be used in multiple unless it's multiple of a similar type.   GWR has ... 15x, 16x, 175, Castle, 57 and IET and "never they shall mix" except the occasional emergency coupling such as castle dragging a broken sleeper.    For sure, 4s and 6s are going to turn up on trains that are nominally 5 carriages, just as 2 and 3 car trains seem to switch at times (as do 5 and 9 car).

It looks a bit like a blunt CrossCountry train, but so what, so long as it's OK in the passenger bit. And working

I don't see 5 car175s being a problem with the amount of units they will have available. Just like 150s that outstable at Plymouth and Penzance some 175s will outstable at Exeter in the space vacated by the 158s.
There will always be odd days when one ends up on Paignton-Exmouth because a turbo or 150 fails.

I wish I shared your optimism.   Although there are - what - 26 units, I can see that fleet being stretched to the ultimate theoritically possible ... displacing Castles, displacing 150s where they can (Falmouth and St Ives) so that a minimum number of those need a refurb, providing trains for the midCornwall Metro, displacing 158s to replace 165s and 166s on the Cardiff Portsmouth to make those units available for Portishead in 2030, and to replace 5 car IETs on the Cardiff - Exeter service to provide units for an all day, every day Bristol to Oxford.  Not much left from the 26 ...

The 150s are staying at Exeter. GWR has five 3 car 158s, three of which are usually used on Barnstaple-Exeter. The 175s would have no problem replacing them. They have 10 HSTs but only use about three regular diagrams Mon-Sat and one on Sunday.

The Laira training 175s in 5 car and 2 car formations ran a number of trips last week between Newton Abbot and Penzance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0U-WSbXSVE

One refurbished unit arrived at Laira from Wolverton under it's own power. There is another 7 or 8 at Wolverton which must be ready to come down. The rest are still at Ely.

175s are unlikely to appear on the Cornwall branches.

Could this be the first 175 working  the only Sunday HST diagram

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L17301/2025-12-14/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L16959/2025-12-14/detailed

There seems to be a halt to the 175 training runs around Plymouth?
Coincidentally, I note that most of the Cross Country runs to/from Bristol are 1Zxx's (confusing when you're looking for 175 runs!).

Been reported elsewhere that units 175 111 and 175 115 are currently being hauled from storage at Ely to Wolverton works by locos 93006 and 93002

RAIL Magazine has posted a photo of 93006 at the front of the train:

https://x.com/RAIL/status/1976245003006427310 (https://x.com/RAIL/status/1976245003006427310)

Where the 175s are as of today and still two months before the timetable change. Also the 158s are likely to be gone at the same time.

From another site.

Ely Mif :11:  175004/005/008/010 175102/103/104/105/109/110/116 (175008 is in two halves)

Wolverton : 11 : 175001/006/011 175101/106/107/108/111/112/113/115 Many of these must be ready to leave.

Laira : 5:  175002/003/007/009 175114 (only 003 is refurbished)

Looks like another unit (or perhaps more than one in multiple) is moving from Wolverton works to Laira tomorrow

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K45673/2025-10-29/detailed

And under it's own power maximum 100mph. Hopefully more than one unit as it looks like more 175s being dragged to Wolverton from Ely Thursday.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R19713/2025-10-30/detailed

This could mean a HST diagram being replaced by a 175 before the December timetable change.

Todays Wolverton-Laira cancelled. Might have a knock-on effect and cancel the Ely-Wolverton move tomorrow.


Ely-Wolverton is running Thursday.

175102/116 moved to Wolverton

Ely Mif :9:  175004/005/008/010 175103/104/105/109/110 (175008 is in two halves)

Wolverton : 13 : 175001/006/011 175101/102/106/107/108/111/112/113/115/116 Many of these must be ready to leave.

Laira : 5:  175002/003/007/009 175114 (only 003 is refurbished)

Sounds like a 2car 175 is on route from Wolverton to Laira (second unit to be delivered having passed through Wolverton works). Reports elsewhere it is set 175001

Expected to pass Westbury on avoiding line around 14:18

175001 is shown at EXD today in a picture on Railways of Devon and Cornwall by Rich Martian Browne.

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10241366930496540&set=g.384010423010289

Ely Mif :9:  175004/005/008/010 175103/104/105/109/110 (175008 is in two halves)

Wolverton : 12 : 175006/011 175101/102/106/107/108/111/112/113/115/116 Many of these must be ready to leave.

Laira : 6:  175002/007/009 175114; 175001/003 are refurbished.

Maybe the two refurbished units could replace a HST diagram. Better than lying idle at Laira for another 5 weeks.

Really surprised they only brought one unit down again and not two or three.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBYj2HFmZmo

175001 motoring to Laira yesterday.

Been announced that contract for £3,159,166 enhancement works at Laira depot for 175s has been awarded to Emeg of Chesterfield

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2025/W47/859046297

£3m not going to buy much; a new walkway, new lighting?

On Friday hopefully more than one unit is coming from Wolverton to Laira.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K48039/2025-11-28/detailed

Comments on Twitter/X about the 175s

https://x.com/chimewhistle/status/1993967812826518010?s=61&t=VlafMC5gF9tidw36b1Y8JQ

https://x.com/chimewhistle/status/1993964158002274622?s=61&t=VlafMC5gF9tidw36b1Y8JQ

https://x.com/chimewhistle/status/1993810490515190092?s=61&t=VlafMC5gF9tidw36b1Y8JQ

Modern Railways says that the Castles are definitely finished, and any lack of 175s will be made up with 150s

15 150s in use today. There's no spares although talk of TFW 150s coming.
Strangely on the Devon metro today there are no 158s. Seven turbos (one 2 car) operating. One two car 150 cancelled from Paignton. Two 150s being used on the busiest train from Barnstaple.

If so, let's hope TFW looked after them better than the 175s. Or are they coming for cannibalising for spares?

The 175 move Wolverton to Laira was cancelled today. Maybe another go next week? It will be 4 weeks since the last move.

175002 and 175114 have been at Laira for a year!!

So surely they at least are not in a terrible state.  What happened to them in Wolverton - wipe the windows, check the oil, dollar gas?

Well at least they ain't wastin' time no more - they're southbound. But enough of my ramblin', man.

Another path for a move Wolverton-Laira has been added for 10th December.   

This time it appears to wait at Bath goods loop from 14:18 until 15:00, rather than waiting at Taunton

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K48565/2025-12-10/detailed

I knew I could rely on you, and they weren't just wasted words!

There is a move from Wolverton to Laira today (which has been activated), due to wait Bath goods loop from about 14:15 to 15:00 (see link)

Some units moved from Ely to Wolverton back in the summer, so have had months to work on them.

Wonder if today's move will be a single unit (again) or number coupled together to be ready to replace the Castle HSTs

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K48565/2025-12-10/detailed

Two 2 car units just gone through Dawlish 45 minutes early. Reported elsewhere as 175006+175011.

Ely Mif :9:  175004/005/008/010 175103/104/105/109/110 (175008 is in two halves)

Wolverton : 10 : 175101/102/106/107/108/111/112/113/115/116

Laira : 8:  175002/007/009 175114; 175001/003/006/011 are refurbished.

Updated 10 December 2025

It is reported ...


and


I can't help feeling that in passenger facilities and comfort, a 150 is a step down from an HST, though for sure it is cheaper to run.

Scarcely credible, however it's reported elsewhere that fighting broke out amongst the spotters on one of the final HST runs this morning - turfed off at Truro apparently.

One would hope that no members of this esteemed forum were involved - whoever he was, he's certainly a cheeky boy!  :o

https://x.com/themblades1889/status/1999819955705880721?s=20

Can only assume someone was sitting in his seat.

Seriously though, sad to see this happening on the last day of HST operations on GWR or at any time on a train.

The last HST is turning out to be 2P97 Newquay to Plymouth departing 14 late at 2136 standing in for a failed 150 since 1416hrs.
If it's a case there isn't one 175 in passenger operation on Sunday or Monday then Mark Hopwood has presided over a complete fiasco.

Quite ironic that a HST had to stand-in for a unit that will probably have to cover the HST this week.....

How today is supposed to work; 2 units  come off Laira coupled, they carry out some ECS moves (presumably more crew training) then they split. One unit stays ECS and 175003 becomes 2C26 passenger to Penzance.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P22971/2025-12-15/detailed#allox_id=0

As at 1036. It is now 175001

175001 has departed Plymouth for Penzance. It was sitting in the dock platform all morning.

In the nick of time then!  ;)

10:14 Plymouth to Penzance due 12:12
10:14 Plymouth to Penzance due 12:12 will be cancelled.
This is due to a broken down train.

13:14 Penzance to Plymouth due 15:10
13:14 Penzance to Plymouth due 15:10 will be cancelled.
This is due to a broken down train.

Looking good so far!  ::)

175001 is due out at 1340 Plymouth-Penzance-Plymouth same as Monday

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P22971/2025-12-16/detailed#allox_id=0

175003 is out now on a training run to Penzance and back.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V63761/2025-12-16/detailed#allox_id=1

From GWR.com

https://news.gwr.com/news/first-of-great-western-railways-recommissioned-class-175-trains-enters-passenger-service (https://news.gwr.com/news/first-of-great-western-railways-recommissioned-class-175-trains-enters-passenger-service)

Oh early - that's good  ;D ;D

But rather more serious, the winter lull in leisure holiday passenger numbers will give GWR the opportunity to get more of these into service and I don't suppose shortforms rather that MULTIPLE units on these trains will lead to too much overcrowding in January and February.  A window of opportunity.

Yes, good timing really as Cornwall/Devon go quieter than most routes over winter when compared with the summer rush.  A little bit of breathing space.

Hopefully there will be enough 175 units in service by next May to provide adequate summer capacity, including the release one for the extra Par<>Newquay services, and get some IETs released back to bolster the length of longer distance trips and new services such as Oxford<>Bristol.

It will be a bit of a 'sticking plaster' for 5+ years until new units as part of Operation Churchward come on stream, but way better than nothing.

Probably closer to net nothing,  than a complete stopgap.

If you exclude the 3x4coach =12 Castle HSTs that were replaced,
the extra Newquay service (3-4 coach in summer),
a Portishead train 3 cars,
Extra 2 carriages for increased capacity for Oakhampton Interchange,
restoring short 3car to 4car on Cardiff-Portsmouth (8 vehicles),
Transfer of two 5car IETs from SW to Bristol-Oxford (10 vehicles),

Leaves less than 30 carriages extra, and based on some of the recent growth figures in South West in the ORR station usage (many are 5+% per year, with few nearer 8%), so could be 25-40% growth in 5 years.  Is the 175 fleet more a token effort than a real solution for at least 5 years.

I realise getting the 175s was a struggle, but when trying to secure them started (back in 2023 ?) DfT was still in post Covid mode.  Could argue it still is thinking like that rather than regional growth away from London.  But as we have such a start-stop train ordering policy I don't really know where any trains could actually come from if needed in 2-3 years time.

3 car 175s to Okehampton. 50% increase in capacity which they will need with the opening of Okehampton Interchange.
5 car 175 (2 units) on the busiest train (workers and students) out of Barnstaple.
This releases the 158s to Bristol. 175s will not work there.

5 or 6 turbos will still need to come down from Bristol for the Devon Metro.

Newquay hourly service unlikely to see 175s which is to be done by 150s. An increase in passengers numbers which is very likely could change that.

175s will take over from the 800s between Exeter and Penzance. The split Cardiff- Penzance looks likely to be permanent with Cardiff-Taunton being extended to Exeter to call at Cullompton and Wellington when they open. This would free up space at Taunton for the 175s to reverse calling at Cullompton and Wellington.

Yes, I guess we'll have to see how it all shakes out. 

Though from the summer timetable change up to last weekend, two of the three Castle Class HST diagrams only had one return trip from Plymouth to Penzance on them.  The other one was closer to a 'full' diagram, but even that was out on passenger workings for less than 12 hours a day.  So, there's plenty of scope to tighten up and consolodate. 

Portishead is still three years away.

If this topic continues to drift towards Portishead, that's absolutely no problem.  :)

I may simply split off a few of the more recent posts here and merge them with a specific topic we have elsewhere on the Coffee Shop forum on the subject of 'Portishead re-opening'.

That topic has been going for way more than 3 years, I can assure you!  ;D

A couple of recent posts here have indeed been split off, moved and merged with our ongoing Portishead reopening topic.

See https://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=231.msg369669#msg369669  :)

175001 doing it's passenger run to Penzance and back. 1340 off Plymouth. It did a training run to Penzance coupled with 175009 beforehand. 175009 went back to Laira at 1340.

175001 seems to be the only train they trust in passenger service despite three other refurbished units at Laira. It was cancelled yesterday due to a fire alarm.

Today a planned drag from Ely to Penzance was cancelled due to locomotive failure. It was to be repaired at Longrock????

Stock shortages in the southwest are really bad this week with shortforms despite Looe and St Ives having a bus service this week.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K49768/2026-01-09/detailed

175s coming from Wolverton today, hopefully. A 150  from Wolverton to Exeter was cancelled yesterday.

But will the trains be in serviceable condition. Of the four previous refurbished units; only 175001 has been used in passenger service.

The drag from Ely to Penzance is now scheduled for next week. Is it to do the work that Wolverton should be doing?

1945hrs Train did not run today

Still in Wolverton, I think, as of CoP 12 Jamuary.

The seventeen hour drag from Ely to Long Rock took place today; reportedly 175010.

So I think this is the situation. 175001 is the only train in passenger service and that had a door failure that should have been fixable but it was taken out of service. Back working today.

Ely Mif :8:  175004/005/008, 175103/104/105/109/110 (175008 is in two halves)

Wolverton : 10 : 175101/102/106/107/108/111/112/113/115/116

Laira : 8:  175002/007/009, 175114; 175001/003/006/011 are refurbished.

Long Rock : 1 : 175010

Updated 13 January 2026

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K60141/2026-01-16/detailed

Late start. Let's hope they are in condition for passenger service. Got the weekend to fix them. Yesterday 175001 ran a training run but was replaced by a 150 for the 1340 Plymouth- Penzance and back. Not one of the other three refurbished units at Laira has run in passenger service AFAIK.

It certainly feels like a slow (re)start of the class.  And January and February being the slow time of year, a 2 coach 150 on train from Penzance or 2 St Ives will have adequate capacity whereas come Easter, if the weather in nice, 2x158 or an IET or an HST would have been needed. 

175003, one of the refurbished, is planned to operate the 1340 Plymouth Penzance today.

True, but today Paignton -Exmouth two short formed 150s. Barnstaple a two car 158. There are only 10 150s operating the Devon and Cornwall branches and thats's with St Ives and Looe operating with buses. The other 150s must be on the main line or defective.

175003 did not run but 175001 took it's place. So a second of four has still not run in public service. Something seriously wrong with these trains.



See what tomorrows delivery from Wolverton is.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K60141/2026-01-16/detailed

You may well be right, but let's hope not. When the 165/6's came to Bristol they were plagued with reliability issues while the local maintenance teams got the hang of them. Now they're  not too bad, given their age and unsuitability for short-stop metro-style services.

Even by railway standards, the entry into service of these existing trains is happening at glacial pace. It does make you wonder how they were maintained towards the end of their time in Wales and the length of time they were stored outside has played a part.

I think that's reasonably well known - the maintenance contract was taken away from Alstom (who built the trains) and given to CAF (who built their replacements), and CAF were either uninterested or unknowledgeable. There was a series of Adelante-like fires in 2023.

175001 (paired with 009), the only unit that can run in public traffic, was terminated on its training run at Liskeard as the windscreen spontaneously cracked in 2 places.

Nothing from Wolverton in the past two hours. Maybe they have gone to get some clear cello tape. Perhaps the tide is in at Dawlish when the train is due?

Apparently cancelled due to signal failure (per real time trains)

175007 out in public use today on 2C49 12.42 Plymouth - Penzance and 2P24 15.15 Penzance - Plymouth

And it's an un-refurbished unit. On another site, water from the air condition unit coming down the windows inside.

Looks like another unit (hopefully more than one unit) is scheduled from Wolverton to Laira on Friday.

Last couple of scheduled deliveries were cancelled, so will this one actually happen

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K60250/2026-01-23/detailed

Today, 175001 refurbished and 175007 unrefurbished out on training runs with 175001 expected to take up the passenger service at 1340. These two, out of eight, trains seem to be the only trains used in public service.

Rumour on X that Papworth sidings, Ely are closing in March

https://x.com/trainlifegb/status/2014057725278212412?s=61&t=VlafMC5gF9tidw36b1Y8JQ

Can they seriously close with just two months notice?

Liskeard and Saltash?

Delivery of a 175 (or maybe more than one unit coupled together) is currently happening, left Wolverton few minutes early

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K60250/2026-01-23/detailed

 A 3 car 175, maybe more, has left Wolverton. Hopefully catch it at Dawlishcam at 17.38 although is often early.

Reported as 175101

Running 49 minutes early! Maybe this will get to Laira.

If it does not stop at Taunton it will 100 minutes early. Green all the way.

It made Tavistock Junction 94 early, but has either stopped there or delayed the announcement of its triumphal entry into Laira.

The timings show how good this train is. Just needs to be able to carry passengers.

Ely Mif :8:  175004/005/008, 175103/104/105/109/110 (175008 is in two halves)

Wolverton : 9 : 175102/106/107/108/111/112/113/115/116

Laira : 9:  175002/007/009, 175114; 175001/003/006/011, 175101 are refurbished.

Long Rock : 1 : 175010

Updated 23 January 2026

Did I see a 175 at Saltash this afternoon?

175001 been to Newton Abbot and Penzance
175007 had a couple of runs to Lostwithel and back first then Par and back

That, or you may need to update your medication. ;D

175101 yesterday stopping for no one at Newton Abbot. It is impressive.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WWT4932_b40

Passing West Drayton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X6ICpRYwlw

175002 un-refurbished being used on a training run then to make up passenger 1340 to Penzance. 175001 refurbished also out training.

Have we got any green ones yet?

As these are a stop gap, very unlikely to be repainted and the future of regional liveries is up in the air with the possible new GBR livery.

Planned 175004 and 175110 dragged to Wolverton today but the planned move from Wolverton to Laira was cancelled.

Ely Mif 6:  175005/008, 175103/104/105/109 (175008 is in two halves)

Wolverton : 11 : 175004, 175102/106/107/108/110/111/112/113/115/116

Laira : 8:  175002/007/009, 175114; 175001/003/006/011, 175101 are refurbished.

Long Rock : 1 : 175010

Updated 30 January 2026

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOCFBzYBXjY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOCFBzYBXjY)

175007 was in public service today.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K61700/2026-02-06/detailed

Another go from Wolverton. Very late in the day.

2C26 1340 Plymouth to Penzance (175002 to Liskeard) sat down at Liskeard and sulking.
Due to a broken down train at Liskeard disruption is expected until 16:00 05/02.
Train services between Plymouth and Penzance may be cancelled or delayed.
Customer Advice
-
What has happened?
-
A train has broken down at Liskeard, blocking the line towards Penzance.
-
What are we doing about it?
-
Our engineers are working with the crew on the train to find the cause of the fault. We are currently unable to run trains from Plymouth towards Penzance. This will also begin to affect services from Penzance towards Plymouth, as trains will not be in the right place.
2C27 1255 Exeter St Davids to Menheniot Signal Dm260 now sitting at said signal for an hour now.

Failed 175 only recently disappeared from Traksy - not sure where the unit has gone. The 17.50 Penzance - Paddington is formed of 150238 (2 car). Lost 30 minutes or so en-route to Plymouth but still going on! Lost no more time to Totnes. How far will it reach before being relieved of its long distance outing? Or maybe there was a swap of trains at Plymouth?
Presumably off the Falmouth branch shuttle but good bit of initiative!

Dumped in the Yard at Liskeard

172002 had brakes locked on at Liskeard. This fault a couple days after it had door interlock issues, also at Liskeard

Today the rescue unit sent wrong road from Plymouth was coupled up to 175002 and the brake problem transferred to the new unit. ::)

Subsequent major disruption in Cornwall.

The move from Wolverton to Laira was cancelled for the second time which has been the norm.

175002 and 175011 are parked up on the Looe branch until they fix the problem.

Plan to remove the failed units tomorrow night.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:53806/2026-02-11/detailed

Today has been a good day with 175001+175003 in tandem on training run to Newton Abbot-Penzance-Plymouth before 175001 made up the one passenger diagram to Penzance and back.

175009 also did a couple of training runs.

8X75. - Maximum speed 33 m.p.h.   23:20 at Liskeard to 04:15 at Laira.  On skids?  Man walking in front with red flag?

That would be too fast for skates, wouldn't it? But it's actually a "feature" of RTT's reporting of VSTP services: in the data the 33 is meant to be m/s but it hasn't been converted, which would give 75 mi/hr.

ANother forum is saying 5mph.... those timings certainly look painful!

I assume the '33' is some code in the timing load – looks like RTT can't match it against its list of timing load tokens, so it's misreading as a speed, perhaps. Similar to when the IET timings first appeared - IIRC the code for Class 800 DMU didn't make sense to RTT (or to whatever source it uses) so it parsed it as diesel loco with 800t trailing load.

Watch Journeycheck tomorrow morning - "this train has been delayed because of a slower train in front of it" for early services from Penzance to Plymouth.

Pathing and planning speed are two separate parameters. Here, for example, is what RTT has for a goods working (not VSTP) which ran yesterday -

For most passenger stock at the moment the pathing information does not include a speed, that's implied by the class.

This is the text for the  planned recovery of the 175s tonight -

Obviously the scheduled timings were not derived from either the maximum speed for planning purposes or the pathing category!

That "33 mph" is common on RTT for VSTP (labelled VST) movements, for example this for a light loco running Bescot to Arpley yesterday -

The point, as I understand it, is that VSTPs are different. Everything else goes through standard processing to become part of the current timetable, at least at the start of each day. Details may be altered later (becoming VAR entries), but no new entries can be inserted into the timetable. VSTP items are provided separately so that they can be added to e.g. displayed outputs at a late stage in their production. The process that formats them for the industry data feed is separate from that for the main timetable.

So yes - that speed is provided in m/s, and should converted if required in mi/hr as 75. Other apps on line get it right, e.g. Liverail, or Live Train Times. The last divides the information differently, but for tonight's sick 175 movement includes:

If they can separate the trains maybe 175011 can return faster?

This is a job for Saltash cams at 0208 if I can stay awake. Don't trust the timings.

175009 failed today out on the public run.

Recovering the trains was cancelled. Luckily I forgot and didn't stay up.

After all that, what an anti-climax!
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V75372/2026-02-12/detailed (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V75372/2026-02-12/detailed)

All sorted out in situ (by someone who knows about these things, apparently) and then scoot back to Plymouth in half an hour. Its buddy 011 was meant to follow an hour later (5Z15), but for some reason ... now what's happened there?

011 due to leave Liskeard as 5Z15 at 1945 using an existing path showing cancelled at the moment. It wasn't going to be sent via Penzance.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V75376/2026-02-12/detailed

175011 is back at Laira somehow??
It is out an about and due to do the 1340 Plymouth - Penzance. I did a snip of the train at Saltash. It may not appear here.
(https://www.railforums.co.uk/attachments/screenshot-2026-02-13-112640-png.198038/)

5Z13 shows 175011 allocated from Par (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V75378/2026-02-13/detailed#allox_id=0), and RTT has reports of it from Par to (so far) St Germans. How it got to Par, and why it's not showing on Traksy, is another matter.

It has just popped up at Wivelscombe on Traksy. But how it's already got past Saltash on camera, I have no idea.

I have a picture of 175011 using the snipping tool because you can turn the time back on the Saltash camera to 11.14 hrs. I just did it again to check.  I posted it on RailUK forums but it dosen't work here unless I put it on Flikr.

The 1340 was cancelled and only 175001 seems to be running round. GWR service gone to pot.

This hasn't aged very well.

A bit like the 175s...

Just to tidy up, and correct my mistakes:
-  REVUpminster's webcam of 175011picture was on 5Z33, 1100 Plymouth-Par, coming off the bridge at 11:13.
- so that answers my question about how it got to Par
- it was also seen in the Saltash webcam on 5Z13 at 12:51, on the way back to Plymouth (arr. 1259).

Which leaves outstanding the question of when it first got back from its enforced holiday at Liskeard to Plymouth. If I had to guess (which I don't, obviously) I'd say it was coupled to 175007, but not mentioned in despatches.

or did come back with 175002 and not mentioned.
An interesting signal problem is how. On London Underground signalling; as the points cannot be guaranteed, because a train is occupying the approach section, to be locked they would have to be scotched and clipped and hand signalled into the platform or the trains moved towards Liskard past signal LD20, the points on the branch scotched and clipped then the normal signal interlocking can take effect and the trains moved onto the main line.

Ely Mif 6:  175005/008, 175103/104/105/109 (175008 is in two halves)

Wolverton : 10 : 175004, 175102/106/107/108/110/111/113/115/116

Laira : 10:  175002/007/009, 175114; 175001/003/006/011, 175101/112 are refurbished

Long Rock : 1 : 175010

175002 and 175114 have been at Laira over a year.

175112 arrived at Laira from Wolverton today about 87 minutes early.

Updated 20 February 2026. I have had to correct a previous post but I think this is right.

175001+175007 are doing the Plymouth-Penzance-Plymouth run today together.

All fully signalled with shunt signals. No need for anything to be clipped and scotched.

If fully signalled with shunt signals the points would be mechanically locked and presumably electronically locked and you would not be able to change the points on the main line. On the undergound as some who might have to do it we were taught to say scotched and clipped as the scotch goes in first in case the points move as you try to put the clip on. The trainer would also say don't put the clip on over the rail. It's been done!

I'm not quite sure I get you! 
if you go from Liskeard platform on the mainline towards the branch, you'd be signalled by a shunt signal - LD17.  Speed is 5mph.  Once the train drops in clear of LD20 on the branch, LD17 can be returned to danger and the points on the mainline can be returned to normal - mainline route.
Coming off the branch, the points will be reversed and LD20 can then be cleared in to the platform as far as LD11 which is Penzance end of the platform. 

If you were to use another unit to rescue the failed sets, you could still clear LD17 from the platform but because you will not drop in clear of LD20 you would need authorisation from the signaller to change direction and return to the platform.  The points would remain locked in position. 
The only time you wouldn't potentially need to clip and scotch the points is if the move was a passenger carrying move.

In other news 175002 visited Newquay yesterday.

And it's due to do so again today. 175001+175007 again working in tandem as well.

It's also reported the three units came out of Laira together although not supported by Realtime trains and were meant to go back together this evening although it did not seem to happen yesterday when both trains ended alongside each other in platform 7 and 8.

There are issues coupling more than 2 units together, therefore VSTP diagrams are splitting the moves to/from Laira into 2 separate ones, 5Z10 and 5Z11 this morning.

07:12 Plymouth to Penzance due 09:19
09:50 Penzance to Plymouth due 11:47
12:18 Plymouth to Penzance due 14:14
14:50 Penzance to Plymouth due 16:45
17:00 Plymouth to Liskeard due 17:37

All cancelled due to "more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time" - more problems with these "new" trains?

RTT not showing a 175, but 150'type.

With Barnstaple, Okehampton and Exmouth all running again ... and I suspect this week that in these days of specialisation there are trains in Plymouth that need to get to Exeter for repair but can't because the line from Totnes to Plymouth is closed for engineering works, and the old alternative from Bere Alston to Okehampton has been closed for much longer.

Booked for a 4-car Class 150.

Another spin of the famous JourneyCheck 'AM reality is PM fantasy' wheel - with the last three all now reinstated...using a 2-car 150.

Same with the 10:56 from Chippenham to London Paddington this morning.  Journeycheck suggested it was a 5 car rather than a 9.   I was in coach H.

Long article in the latest Rail magazine 1056 of an interview with GWR Programme Director Barry Milsom about the 175 delays.
In summary, outside storage for years has caused damage requiring repair, plus other issues.

There is intention to add another 175 in to passenger service from 16 March to run Plymouth - Penzance - Exeter St Davids - Penzance - Plymouth as there are now 6 serviceable sets that can run in passenger service.  However 175006 broke down again today with a bogie fault and 5Z13 training run was cancelled as a result.

ETA, the diagram will be
2C00 05.33 Plymouth - Penzance
2E06 07.45 Penzance - Exeter St Davids
2C20 11.27 Exeter St Davids - Penzance
2P20 1515 Penzance - Plymouth

175002 on it this morning.

Out on the bike this morning passed 175002, immediately north of Starcross, exhibiting an impressive turn of speed. As above running to time on the 2C20 EXD > PNZ.

There is a path for another class delivery from Wolverton tomorrow (Friday), 4 weeks after last one.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K63327/2026-03-20/detailed

I think 6 units are still stored at Ely, and haven't even got to Wolverton yet, and Wolverton often seems to have them about 4 months

Should be 175111 with another two 3-cars pencilled in for April.

There’s also a move in the system for Ely to Wolverton so potentially another 175 to attempt to get working! 

175111 arrived at Wolverton 9th October, so has taken 5.5 months.

If another unit arriving today from Ely takes the same duration, will reappear in September

And these would have been considered to be in the best condition! 

The move from Ely has been cancelled though.

Ely Mif 6:  175005/008, 175103/104/105/109 (175008 is in two halves)

Wolverton : 9 : 175004, 175102/106/107/108/110/113/115/116

Laira : 11:  175002/007/009, 175114; 175001/003/006/011, 175101/111/112 are refurbished

Long Rock : 1 : 175010

I think this is it as of 20 March 2026

 175103 and 175105 dragged from Ely today; the ones I presume should have come last Friday

Ely : 4: 175005/008, 175104/109 (175008 is in two halves)

Wolverton :11 : 175004, 175102/103/105/106/107/108/110/113/115/116

Laira : 11: 175002/007/009, 175114 ex Ely; 175001/003/006/011, 175101/111/112 ex Wolverton

Long Rock : 1 : 175010 ex Ely

as of 27 March 2026

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXoiW3fW4yc

The first 3 car in passenger service. Not one that has been through Wolverton.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P22967/2026-03-30/detailed#allox_id=0

175109 dragged from Ely today; 175115 to Laira last Monday/Tuesday after being stopped overnight at Westbury to fix a fault.

Ely :3: 175005/008, 175104 (175008 is in two halves)

Wolverton :11 : 175004, 175102/103/105/106/107/108/109/110/113/116

Laira : 12: 175002/007/009, 175114 ex Ely; 175001/003/006/011, 175101/111/112/115 ex Wolverton

Long Rock : 1 : 175010 ex Ely

as of 16 April 2026

175 services from 17 May

Sundays

2C06 0845 Plymouth to Penzance
2E13 1149 Penzance to Exeter St Davids
2C32 1527 Exeter St Davids to Penzance
2P28 1915 Penzance to Plymouth
2C20 1032 Plymouth to Penzance
2E17 1349 Penzance to Exeter St Davids
2P36 1708 Exeter St Davids to Plymouth
2N08 1012 Par to Newquay
2N09 1118 Newquay to Par
2N16 1438 Par to Newquay
2N19 1552 Newquay to Par
2N22 1715 Par to Newquay
2N23 1816 Newquay to Par
2N26 1935 Par to Newquay
2N27 2029 Newquay to Par

Monday-Friday

2C00 0533 Plymouth to Penzance
2E06 0743 Penzance to Exeter St Davids
2C20 1127 Exeter St Davids to Penzance
2P20 1515 Penzance to Plymouth
2P05 0808 Liskeard to Plymouth
2C11 1014 Plymouth to Penzance
2P16 1315 Penzance to Plymouth
2C26 1339 Plymouth to Penzance
2P21 1552 Penzance to Plymouth
2C05 0655 Exeter St Davids to Penzance
2E11 1050 Penzance to Exeter St Davids
2C32 1528 Exeter St Davids to Penzance
2E28 1915 Penzance to Exeter St Davids
2E04 0849 Plymouth to Exeter St Davids
2C18 1027 Exeter St Davids to Penzance
2P17 1350 Penzance to Plymouth
2C31 1556 Plymouth to Penzance
2P27 1850 Penzance to Plymouth
2N02 0707 Par to Newquay
2N03 0822 Newquay to Par
2N06 0916 Par to Newquay
2N07 1028 Newquay to Par
2N10 1121 Par to Newquay
2N11 1217 Newquay to Par
2N14 1316 Par to Newquay
2N15 1428 Newquay to Par
2N18 1515 Par to Newquay
2N19 1618 Newquay to Par
2N22 1717 Par to Newquay
2N23 1822 Newquay to Par
2N26 1916 Par to Newquay
2N27 2028 Newquay to Par

Saturdays

2C05 0515 Plymouth to Penzance
2P10 0740 Penzance to Plymouth
2C49 1242 Plymouth to Penzance
2P24 1515 Penzance to Plymouth
2C42 0800 Exeter St Davids to Penzance
2P18 1150 Penzance to Plymouth
2C53 1443 Plymouth to Penzance
2P30 1715 Penzance to Plymouth
2E12 0850 Penzance to Exeter St Davids
2C51 1219 Exeter St Davids to Penzance
2P26 1550 Penzance to Plymouth
2C40 0807 Plymouth to Penzance
2E16 1039 Penzance to Exeter St Davids
2P56 1422 Exeter St Davids to Plymouth
2C57 1638 Plymouth to Penzance
2P95 1930 Penzance to Plymouth
2N02 0703 Par to Newquay
2N03 0812 Newquay to Par
2N06 0905 Par to Newquay
2N07 1010 Newquay to Par
2N10 1130 Par to Newquay
2N11 1231 Newquay to Par
2N14 1338 Par to Newquay
2N15 1447 Newquay to Par
2N20 1622 Par to Newquay
2N21 1740 Newquay to Par
2N24 1834 Par to Newquay
2N25 1938 Newquay to Par
2N28 2032 Par to Newquay
2P97 2124 Newquay to Plymouth

Five daily diagrams on Weekdays and Saturdays then.

Getting there...

175113 at the third attempt to Laira today.

Ely :3: 175005/008, 175104 (175008 is in two halves)

Wolverton :10 : 175004, 175102/103/105/106/107/108/109/110/116

Laira : 13: 175002/007/009, 175114 ex Ely; 175001/003/006/011, 175101/111/112/113/115 ex Wolverton

Long Rock : 1 : 175010 ex Ely

as of 15 May 2026

Saw my first 175 in GWR territory today at Totnes station just as I arrived at about 13.30.  It was Exeter bound and running about 8 minutes late.  20 mins later boarded my first refurbed XC Voyager... reasonable enough but they still seem not to have sorted out that unpleasant air in the carriages containing the WCs.

You can't polish a turd: Voyagers are crap.

That's only my personal opinion, based on experience, by the way: not an official view from the Coffee Shop forum.  CfN.  ;) ;D :-X

175116  to Laira today. Delayed for 70 mins near Acton Wells but arrived 8 minutes early at Laira

Ely :3: 175005/008, 175104 (175008 is in two halves)

Wolverton :9 : 175004, 175102/103/105/106/107/108/109/110

Laira : 14: 175002/007/009, 175114 ex Ely; 175001/003/006/011, 175101/111/112/113/115/116 ex Wolverton

Long Rock : 1 : 175010 ex Ely

as of 28 May 2026

They are what they are

- But you can roll it in glitter!



Edit note: Quote mark correction, for clarity.  CfN.

175s use a similar effluent system to Voyagers; the waste is stored in an upright tank behind the toilet rather than slung below and some stink as bad.

So whilst you can't polish a turd, you can store them on board the train.

AI's view...

Yeah the 175s avoid the cooked sewage problem, but there is a stale urine smell on some units, probably linked to their storage.

Don't know if this ties in with your observations (and it might just be making stuff up, wouldn't be the first time...):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0YO9ZzSpZA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0YO9ZzSpZA)

First 175 into Paignton.

I did not use hyperlink. May work now.

Video link says it is private, so can't view it!

Try this one. I did put public.https://youtu.be/tEtpOlcXywA (https://youtu.be/tEtpOlcXywA)

Still nope.

That link worked for me: thanks!  ;)

Owner must have changed permissions as this now works for me

Another move from Wolverton cancelled today. Probably only wanted for spare parts. The Paignton training train only lasted two days.
14 trains and lucky if a third operational. If they had shown such patience with the 769s..??? GWR management must be demob happy. He who laughs last has found someone else to blame.

175004 to Exeter depot today.

Ely :3: 175005/008, 175104 (175008 is in two halves)

Wolverton :8 :  175102/103/105/106/107/108/109/110

Laira : 14: 175002/007/009, 175114 ex Ely; 175001/003/006/011, 175101/111/112/113/115/116 ex Wolverton

Exeter : 1 : 175004 ex Wolverton

Long Rock : 1 : 175010 ex Ely

as of 23 June 2026

Only 175001, 175009, 175114 seem to be in passenger service today and no training trains.

GWR have 16 175s, two have been at Laira for 18 months.

Only one extra train has been provided since last December and no strengthening of services anywhere on GWR that the 175s were meant to bring by releasing the 158s to Bristol.

Will GBR keep the management on in December?

Why wouldn’t they?

I have sympathy for ‘the management’ as they have inherited an already unreliable fleet which needed much TLC to offer up OK levels of reliability with TfW and which was left to fester for a year or two in sidings.

A far worse decision from ‘the management’ would have been to chuck them out in service at a rate of knots, and watch them screw up the main line by failing on a daily basis.

Or another poor decision would have been to take the Class 175s over a much more reliable unit…but the 175s were all that was on offer.

And if GWR had persevered with the 769s the turbos would have come west.

The 175s weren't meant to replace 158s just yet. So far, they've only released IETs which have been put straight into use on the Bristol - Oxford services.

158s will only start to be released when the 175s begin on the Barnstaple services.

Two months short of two years this thread - feels a very long time

Which 175s have replaced IETs. The over used 150s are covering 175s giving short forms on Paignton-Exmouth (2 today, 2 yesterday). Yesterday I train on Falmouth, shortform on St Ives and two 150s on Newquay.
Something is coming from Wolverton tomorrow to Exeter believed to be a 150. Last week 175004 arrived at Exeter and must be in the shed.

GWR are not interested in the South West. They rebuilt  Exeter Depot with their own money but abandoned extending platform 2

And they were told not to persevere with the 769s by the DfT to cut costs.

And had they persevered, they would probably have been less reliable than the 175s!

https://www.railbusinessuk.com/traction-rolling-stock/2022/12/23/gwr-fleet-to-shrink-further-as-it-abandons-class-769-introduction/

And stopped Alliance Rail using them this year.

Today Newquay 2 hour gap but looks like 175003 coming off training to take up the diagram. 175114, 175115, 175009, and a 150 working the HST diagrams. Paignton had a one gap and a later short form probably to fill the missing train.

One of the lessons of being a member of this forum for many years is that DfT (and presumably, behind them, the Treasury) are the real decision makers, down to quite a low level of detail. It will be interesting to see how much latitude GBR will have to get on with managing things themselves. I expect that the high level of investment it requires will restrict its ability to do so.

175005 moved by road, unable to be dragged, to Wolverton reported on another site. Also half of 008 is at Wolverton

Ely :2: 175008 (half), 175104

Wolverton : 9 : 175005.  175102/103/105/106/107/108/109/110

Laira : 14: 175002/007/009, 175114 ex Ely; 175001/003/006/011, 175101/111/112/113/115/116 ex Wolverton

Exeter : 1 : 175004 ex Wolverton

Long Rock : 1 : 175010 ex Ely

as of 1 July 2026

I'm not so sure.

I wonder if GWR and their senior management presented their CVs for consideration, listing their "achievements" whilst at the controls, how would they stack up against (for example) a new team with fresher ideas and (for example) a more customer driven culture?

For sure they've had to deal with issues such as these ageing hand-me-downs, but if you look at the relative "newness" of much of the fleet (800 series, Electrostars etc) and all the opportunities they had to deal with historic issues when more was within their control, perhaps history may not be quite so forgiving.

Maybe, as with the onset of GBR, it's just time for a change all round.

No-one's irreplaceable, after all.

That said, other than a new colour scheme, I foresee very little (positive) change under GBR - I remember the excitement on these pages when it was first announced several years ago, and having asked the well informed people here at the time what real positive difference it would make to customers, I'm still waiting for an answer.............that's not a reflection on any forum members by the way, more on reality!

Perhaps the experience with the 175s are a metaphor for the future.

Same management, same problems is my prediction.

Time will tell!

An extremely plausible outcome! (and admirably succinct compared to me!)  :)

The 175s have been in service since December (7 months) and provided one extra train (Newquay). They have not improved any other service; only made them worse. GWR have 16 of them at the moment. A green one, 175103,  is expected next week.

Posted on X (https://x.com/TodaysRailways/status/2078035673987043757)


Click on the link to view the photo.....and its NOT in GBR colours either. Possibly the very last in GWR....

What an utter waste of money.

Painting a train in the livery of a TOC that will cease to exist in less than 5 months. Why not paint it in GBR colours?

Maybe they're just using up all the old tins of paint / vinyl,  before they go out of date?  :P

I'm not as against the new GBR livery as some, but it's not a patch on the beautiful GWR one, so I for one will be happy to see it for as long as possible.

I think that green will be the dominant colour in the west for a long while, with small (hopefully) GBR vinyls slapped on top.

And a waste of money?  Perhaps that could be labelled at Chiltern who are busy slapping their new/adapted livery on their entire fleet of 168s and 'Explorers' currently...and they only have 2 months left as a TOC!

Compounds the profligacy.

The sort of thing people should bear in mind and reflect on when howling for more money for the railways.

I think they would have looked good if they had just put green vinyl over the red.

Bear in mind that operators will be contracted to their ROSCOs to maintain their units - that includes various exams etc & refreshes. Being nationalised won't terminate these contracts which will & are continuing...hence these refreshes etc looking 'odd' timing wise - it'll be because their lease contracts require it.

Looks like another 175 is due to leave Wolverton works for Plymouth today

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K00010/2026-08-06/detailed

Cancelled. 'twas only the second attempt.

They have not been trusted at Newquay this week.

Good grief.

Followed this thread, are they just a collection of rusting wrecks?

Trusted on the main line though?

Five Devon/Cornwall diagrams being worked by 175s today, specifically:  175009, 175011, 175101, 175111, 175112.  Plus a sixth, 175002, running up and down on test/training runs.

Didn't 115 cause chaos yesterday?

The 175s are supposedly being let loose on Okehampton/Barnstaple at the end of August. It is an ideal train but only if they can get it to work. Improved services required 19 trains, the number of 769s, GWR have 16 175s now with another 10 due.

Third time lucky tomorrow.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:K00923/2026-08-13/detailed

If this train doesn't enter service straight away, then Hopgood's interview meant nothing.

I’d have thought the temperatures tomorrow might well scupper that.

RMT are moving into dispute with GWR over a breach of Health and Safety regarding 175s.

Wolverton cancelled,  003 and 006 running round empty.

Jonathan Webb (Chime Publishing) tweeting that the RMT are balloting for potential industrial action over the failing 175s

...so does RMT think that class 175s are animate objects that will be shamed into behaving properly and starting to work under the threat of strike action? Unless they know how to fix them and can demonstrate that the powers that be are not taking the required action, what is the point?

From another forum re: 175s

You will never get them to work properly on the GWR. A good friend of mine worked on them in all over Wales in the last couple of years there before they were put into hibernation for two years plus. They were all on their last legs then and all need new computers in them. All sent to GWR with very little thought of need maintenance, just move then on and repair them as a when. No wonder their reliability is rubbish. But the new ones on the Welsh network seen Ok he says. They certainly don’t want them back.

This class 180 video will probably be useful. Once you've attempted to restart engines locally on your way to the front, don't forget the WD40 for the cab door: https://youtu.be/86oqnk--X_A?t=244

Apparently 175s cannot operate in the dark anymore. You couldn't make it up.

Today 2C05 0655 Exeter- Penzance was operated by 166207 to Plymouth then 175006 took over the diagram.

Yesterday the diagram 2E28 1915 Penzance- Exeter was cancelled from Par; getting dark. There is a real contempt for passengers in the southwest as that is the connecting train at Exeter for the last Bristol

The same tonight???

Something union related to do with the illumination (or non illumination) of the AWS sunflower in the cab.

Train's have operated with non-illuminated sunflowers for many years, but new/refurbished stock are generally installed with, or modified to be, illuminated.  So perhaps the union are demanding parity with other stock operates on the route for 'safety reasons'?

You would think they would also have an audible system as well just in case the driver was looking out the window at the track ahead. Oh they do.

2E28 cancelled at Truro empty to Laira as 5E28. 2Z28 in it's timings 27 late.

Nothing has come out of Wolverton for ten weeks. Will Hopgood be ever on Cornwall Radio again. Jethro passed on.

2Z28 arrived at Exeter and they didn't hold 2M77 the Bristol connection 10 minutes and it went 1/2 minute early.

Looks unfortunate - as I read it, that's the last train east from Exeter St David's?   Wouldn't have happened in the days that the services were through   al the way from Penzance to Bristol, but then in those days the performance figures for Bristol would have ended up worse with a late arrival.

Better late than never, as they say.

The train was late and the connecting train was not held so Penzance passengers could not get to Bristol. Perhaps GWR taxi them. Looking at the night train I thought they could wait for that but last night it went via Newbury, today it's going via Melksham!

According to Modern Railways, GWR has announced a plan to improve the situation.

https://www.modernrailways.com/article/gwr-revises-175-plans (https://www.modernrailways.com/article/gwr-revises-175-plans)

despite the units being refurbished at Wolverton Works. - so am I reading this wrong, they were refurbed and then it was discovered they had corroded, leaking roofs etc or was that addressed as part of the refurb? (in which case why do they seem to be fit for little more than the scrapyard post refurb?)

Temporary reduction in service from Monday 7th...

https://www.cornish-times.co.uk/news/train-gremlins-lead-to-gwr-announcing-cancellation-of-services-until-further-notice-942797

It seems the news IS now announced, and I can share what loos looks like pretty definite timetable changes:


It's notable that the K1-175 timetable is dated "to 12th December 2026" and that suggests to me that the changes will be with us until the end of First's operating contract and perhaps beyond.

Edit note: Typo corrected, for clarity (and to spare grahame from any embarrassment).  ::)

BBC take on the story - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1wxdz8ev7do? (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1wxdz8ev7do?)

Looking at the temporary timetable, it largely reflects what has been happening over the last few weeks.   As has been said it just removes the seemingly inevitable last minute cancellations. 

It's basically the old HST diagrams. As far as I know a 175 will operate the key 2C05 diagram that finishes with 2E28 the last Penzance train to connect at Exeter with the last Bristol.

I don't know if they have sorted out the sunflower situation at  night in case the driver forgets what the aspect of the last signal they passed in a long section.