Inconsistent treatment on the 1830 6th November 2013

[whole diary]

[John R]

I boarded the 1830 ex Paddington tonight with an off peak return ticket from Swindon. The departure board said such tickets "may" not be valid, and for some reason I had in mind that a ticket to Swindon to beyond would be valid.  But it wasn't as the TM^▸ (Train Manager, or Ticket Machine, or Temple Meads (Bristol), depending on context) told us a couple of minutes before departure, that no off peak tickets  were valid. But it was too late by then to get off and so I thought, never mind I will pay the difference.

But no, when I presented my ticket and a credit card to upgrade, I was charged for a brand new ticket as far as Swindon (beyond which I have a season).

Researching the Conditions of Carriage I discovered that off peak and super off peak tickets can be upgraded to anytime on board for payment of the difference, but not in a penalty fare area. Now from Swindon, the line east is not penalty fare (although it is going west), which may make one believe that services to London are not included. But no matter as Paddington is indeed a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) station so I was caught, good and proper.

Now here's the interesting thing. The very same condition goes on to say that the same principle applies for upgrading to first class, ie that you can't do it on board in a penalty fare area. So I was somewhat taken aback when I moved to first at Swindon to find on my table, exactly that. A ^40 excess, standard to first upgrade, issued a few minutes earlier by the same train manager.

So, what I am missing? Why is one passenger treated differently to another by the same TM on the same train?

 

[Super Guard]

You are correct, it should have been a new ticket in both cases... perhaps the first class "upgrader" spoke to the TM^▸ (Train Manager, or Ticket Machine, or Temple Meads (Bristol), depending on context) before boarding, asking if they would be willing to offer the upgrade, they only just turned at station, not prepared to queue etc etc etc...?

While you may have been sat there with a credit card, you may know you needed to upgrade prior to boarding and "get lucky" if not checked on other occasions?

I know this isn't the case for you, but just trying to illustrate how it may look...

[ellendune]

In your case FGW^▸ (First Great Western) stuck to the rules so are within their rights.  I also understand the scepticism of Superguard. However as an example of customer service it is very poor and gives the industry a bad name:

1. The board only said may not be valid - It did not say clearly one way or other.  The reason for this of I suppose is that the ticket system is far too complicated and the definitive message would not fit on the board.

2. There are so many posts on this forum about passengers who have not had their tickets checked, penalty fares are just an excuse for companies not to bother providing the revenue protection staff necessary to check tickets.  In my opinion penalty fares should be abolished and replaced by adequate ticket checks, by sufficient revenue protection staff.

[Southern Stag]

1. The board only said may not be valid - It did not say clearly one way or other.  The reason for this of I suppose is that the ticket system is far too complicated and the definitive message would not fit on the board.

The boards used to say Off Peak tickets are not valid, but it was removed after much complaining, including by bignosemac I believe, that staff were relying on this message to restrict access to peak time trains to all holders of Off Peak tickets. Whilst what are probably the most common Off Peak tickets are restricted, London-Reading, Swindon etc I expect quantity wise most Off Peak tickets aren't restricted in the evening peak out of London Paddington, as many longer distance cross-London Off Peak tickets will be restricted on an alternative leg of the journey. A blanket notice Off Peak ticket's aren't valid could mislead passengers who's tickets are actually valid and prevent them boarding trains they are permitted to board. I believe the notice does also say that passengers should seek the help of staff if they are unsure.

[JayMac]

Penalty Fares rules specifically exclude the issue of a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) when travelling on a time restricted ticket at a time it is not valid.

From the (Strategic Rail Authority - about)%20-%20Penalty%20Fare%20Rules%202002.pdf#page=12" target="_blank">Penalty Fares Rules:

7.6 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Put simply, if you board a Peak train with an Off Peak ticket you should only be sold the excess up to the Anytime fare, or the Anytime Single for travel in one direction, if that is cheaper than excessing a Return ticket. A Penalty Fare should not be issued.

John R. If this was a day trip today, and is something you are likely to repeat in the future, PM me and I can give you some fares advice that could potentially save you money, versus the Anytime and/or Off Peak fares between Swindon<->Paddington, and allow travel from Paddington in the evening peak cheaper than the through Anytime fare.

[Network SouthEast]

I didn't think Guards/Train Managers were "authorised collectors" as defined in the Penalty Fares scheme. An authorised collector has the power to issue a penalty fare, whereas unless I'm mistaken, most (if not all) guards/TMs^▸ (Train Manager, or Ticket Machine, or Temple Meads (Bristol), depending on context) don't.

[Super Guard]

I didn't think Guards/Train Managers were "authorised collectors" as defined in the Penalty Fares scheme. An authorised collector has the power to issue a penalty fare, whereas unless I'm mistaken, most (if not all) guards/TMs^▸ (Train Manager, or Ticket Machine, or Temple Meads (Bristol), depending on context) don't.

Correct.

[JayMac]

I'm aware that is the case. I was just pointing out to the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter, or Off Peak, depending on context) that a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) should not be issued in his case, had he encountered an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector, or Retail Price Index, depending on context).

[thetrout]

A ^40 excess, standard to first upgrade, issued a few minutes earlier by the same train manager.

That's interesting. Ladyfriend trout has upgraded to First Class before on a Chalkwell - Bath Spa Standard Off Peak Return onboard a London Paddington - Bath Spa train a few times. It was the same amount she paid as well. I don't think she spoke to the Train Manager beforehand on each occasion, but was sold the excess without question in all cases.

Just to get the tin opener for the can of worms. One occasion she was told she could not upgrade but was welcome to remain in First Class. She did!