More seats for 3 years, but then fewer - Welsh Valley Trains.

[whole diary]

[grahame]

From BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) a couple or weeks back - I missed this one.

Transport for Wales (TfW^▸ (Transport for Wales)) has said it is looking at options for seating on one line after concerns new trains would cut capacity.

It plans to use larger, refurbished trains on the Rhymney line in 2020, followed by brand new ones in 2023.
But figures suggest services run by the new trains will have less capacity than the refurbished ones, and in some cases even less than current trains.

TfW said it was "constantly" reviewing its plans.

It plans to temporarily replace the current Pacer trains on the line with refurbished Class 769 trains.

The figures, obtained through a Freedom of Information request, show a large increase in seating on services with the Class 769 trains, only for that to go down again on the Rhymney line's Bargoed and Penarth routes when the new Stadler Flirt trains arrive.

James Price, the chief executive of TfW, has told Assembly Members it was working to ensure there was no drop off in seats once the new trains are introduced.

Shock, horror 

Listening to Professor Stuart Cole talking at the FoSBR^» (Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways - site) AGM^▸ (Annual General Meeting), replacement trains may have fewer seats but they will have a lot more comfortable standing space, giving a greater overall passenger capacity.   And much of the overcrowding issues are from the final few stops into Cardiff - with everyone making the journey inbound from north of Pontypridd able to have a seat all the way if they want.  Of course, that does not mean they will get an outbound seat all the way - they may have to stand from the inner city into the early 'burbs.

But wait a minute ... 2023 also brings a more frequent service ... and seats-per-hour is the measure to look at rather than seats-per-train, surely?   From Prof. Cole's presentation, trains per hour now and in the future:



Edit: Prof Cole's original slide, with permission - RS

[eightonedee]

At the current rate of progress they look likely to miss the class 769 era entirely.

What is proposed to happen to them in 2023, by which time the basic stock from they are being converted will be 35 years old? How can a ROSCO^» (ROlling Stock COmpany - about) justify the cost of conversion for a 2 to 3 year lease income?  Or will a lot of trains currently run on second generation diesel stock be run on expensively converted but older diesel electric stock with redundant OHL^▸ (Over-Head Line) equipment?

[Celestial]

They've shot themselves in the foot by bringing in (if they ever arrive) the Class 369s with 5 abreast seating, so there is a big short term increase in seating capacity (but I'm guessing much less standing room), which is then reversed when the new trains come in.

I did read elsewhere though that their assumption for standing space is that you can cram many more people in per square metre than other operators use. So their figures for overall capacity are somewhat inflated.

I wonder how Professor Cole's presentation went down at FoSBR^» (Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways - site). I'm guessing that those on the Severn Beach line (let alone at Melksham) would be very happy to have 4 or 6 or 12 trains an hour, so any complaints from welsh users about capacity must appear somewhat niggardly in comparison.

[grahame]

I wonder how Professor Cole's presentation went down at FoSBR^» (Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways - site). I'm guessing that those on the Severn Beach line (let alone at Melksham) would be very happy to have 4 or 6 or 12 trains an hour, so any complaints from welsh users about capacity must appear somewhat niggardly in comparison.

I was there. "Very well received" I would say - an excellent presentation which left me feeling that I would find it really interesting to see a similar presentation for Bristol.  The slide I have shown was but one element from a much wider ranging review of what people come into Cardiff for, where they come from and how, and how they interchange.  Comparing and contrasting the various directions, why they are as they are, and what the plans are for them.

An absence of regular users of the Valley Lines commuter services from the talk (it was, after all, to a Bristol group) meant there was little or no first hand experience of their overcrowding of concerns at lack of future seats.

[johnneyw]

I'm guessing that those on the Severn Beach line (let alone at Melksham) would be very happy to have 4 or 6 or 12 trains an hour, so any complaints from welsh users about capacity must appear somewhat niggardly in comparison.

Oh for even 3 trains per hour on the Severn Beach line! I'll be cracking open the fizzy stuff when (if?) that day arrives.

Edit: Even 2 TPH would warrant raising a glass!

[Red Squirrel]

Edit: Even 2 TPH would warrant raising a glass!

In all this world, why I do think,
There are five reasons why we drink:
Good friends, good wine, lest we be dry;
Or lest we should be, by and by;
Or any other reason why.

[jamestheredengine]

Edit: Prof Cole's original slide, with permission - RS

I'm not sure how a 4tph Rhymney Valley service is meant to flow into a 5tph Barry one at Central. It's bound to look something like:
arr xx00, dep xx02
starts here, dep xx14
arr xx15, dep xx26
arr xx30, dep xx38
arr xx45, dep xx50

[grahame]

I'm not sure how a 4tph Rhymney Valley service is meant to flow into a 5tph Barry one at Central. It's bound to look something like:

With the benefit of hearing the slide described in the meeting ...

10 trains an hour arriving Queens Street via Cathays
8 trains an hour arriving Queens Street via Heath
=== 18 trains at Queens Street each way ===
6 of those trains on to Cardiff Bay and so ...
=== 12 trains an hour into Central
2 trains onwards to Radyr via the City Line (and on to Aberdare?)
2 trains onwards to Bridgend via Barry Town
3 trains onwards to Barry Island via Barry Town
4 trains onwards to Penarth
which means I have lost one train / turn around at Central??

So for Central ... (one platform, train there for three minutes, next in 2 minutes behind)
Every 5 minutes, alternate trains arriving from Cathays and Heath - 10 minute service from each of those lines
:02 and :32 arrival from Coryton
:07 and :37 from Treherbert
:12 and :42 from Rhymney
:17 and :47 from Aberdare
:22 and :52 from Caerphilly
:27 and :57 from Merthyr Tydfil

:00 :15 :30 :45 on to Penarth
:05 and :35 on to Radyr (and Aberdare?)
Three of :10, :25, :40 and :55 on to Barry Island
:20 and :50 on to Bridgend

And arrivals into Cardiff Bay (10 minute service), roughly
:02 and :32 from Rhymney
:12 and :42 from Merthyr Tydfil
:22 and :52 from Treherbert

I will refrain from fine timing over junctions and looking at where parallel moves can be made!

[Celestial]

I don't think Rhymney trains will go the Bay, as only trams will go down there, and the Rhymney Line trains will be fully bogged heavy trains.  It would make sense for all 4 Rhymney services to go to Penarth, as they are both a quarter hourly service.