Driving licences and tests - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[Chris from Nailsea]

Another update, from the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

What is driving the decision to learn in a manual or automatic car?



Caitlin Graham wanted to learn to drive in an automatic car as she hoped the test would be quicker to pass without having to get to grips with a gear box.

But the 22-year-old says she had little choice but to learn in a manual due to any available automatic instructors being more than 20 miles away.

Motorists have seen a quiet shift in how they drive in recent years - with one in three cars on UK^▸ (United Kingdom) roads now an automatic.

A quarter of driving tests in England, Scotland and Wales last year were taken in automatic cars.

The AA says the trend is being driven by the UK's ban on the sale of new petrol and diesel cars coming in 2030, as electric cars do not have manual gearboxes.

For new drivers, this presents a dilemma - whether to learn and take their test in an automatic or a manual car.

It is a decision that could affect the rest of their driving lives - pass your test in an automatic and you will forever be boxed into only driving automatics - or indeed electric vehicles. Pass in a manual, and you will have the freedom to pick and choose. But many young people say it is not a decision they are freely able to make. Some would-be automatic learners have complained about a lack of instructors and the higher cost of lessons.

Others feel the jeopardy of learning in a manual is just too high. With huge competition for driving test slots, and long waits to re-take for those who fail, some young drivers feel learning in an automatic is the only way out of the fail-rebook, fail-rebook doom loop.

When Caitlin moved back home to a "super rural" part of Cumbria after university she was eager to pass her driving test as quickly as possible. There is no public transport in her village and she wanted to get on with finding a job. But unable to get hold of an automatic instructor she went for manual and passed almost a year after her first lesson. She says it only took her sister, who learned to drive in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, five months to pass in an automatic.

But it is a common misconception that the automatic test is easier - the pass rate for the manual test is higher at 50.4% than automatic at 43.9%, according to Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) figures for the financial year ending 2025.

"People still need to make the right decisions at the right time - make the correct observations at the right time and drive at appropriate speeds," says Stewart Lochrie, chairman of the Approved Driving Instructors National Joint Council (ADIJC).


(BBC article continues)

[Chris from Nailsea]

Purely for the record (and I may have posted this personal information before, on the Coffee Shop forum), I have a squeaky clean driving licence for manual and automatic vehicles, which I've held since August 1986.

It has stood me in good stead, enabling me to drive various delivery vans in a previous employment, for example.

Personally, I'm not a particular fan of automatics - but that's the way things are going, apparently.

My advice to any young driver applying for their driving test is to just go for it - with the current waiting lists, anything is better than nothing, and you can hopefully upgrade it at some time in the future.

CfN.

[Oxonhutch]

My grandad (* 1908) had the most amazing driving licence. Every conceivable category including (what was then) tracked, road roller and trolley vehicle - and he never sat a test in his life.

Apprenticed as a motor mechanic in the late 1920s, he was sent out to the Post Office with his 3/6 to get a driving licence, (radio and dog licences were also available at the same counter) and off he went. Grandfather [sic] Clauses assured the rest, and he drove thus to his dying day.  Not behind the wheel, I must add.

[TonyK]

My grandad (* 1908) had the most amazing driving licence. Every conceivable category including (what was then) tracked, road roller and trolley vehicle - and he never sat a test in his life.

Apprenticed as a motor mechanic in the late 1920s, he was sent out to the Post Office with his 3/6 to get a driving licence, (radio and dog licences were also available at the same counter) and off he went. Grandfather [sic] Clauses assured the rest, and he drove thus to his dying day.  Not behind the wheel, I must add.

Much like my dad, courtesy of the army in the latter stages of WWII^▸ (World War 2 - 1939 to 1945). He didn't use anything much other than the car licence after that. He did give me my first driving lesson, in a Ford Pop, at the age of 10 or 11. This was on a quiet public lane(!) on the moors north of Oldham, and I didn't do too badly.
My son learned in an automatic because of disability some 25 years ago, and was a bit of an outlier then. I've driven all sorts since those first faltering steps in a 3-gear non-syncromesh banger, switching to automatic 5 years ago because of arthritis in my clutch leg being a bit painful. I went electric 2 years ago, and I'm not going back, but I can still drive anything manual. The writing is very much on the wall though, and a 10-year-old today is unlikely to need a manual licence because by then new cars will be electric and used ones are more likely to be automatic. Whether that's good or bad is a moot point. Had electric vehicles been predominant from the start of motoring, any young engineer proposing a different type of propulsion involving serial explosions and a whole lot of complicated gear to manage the process would have been laughed at.
But - earlier this year, I had the privilege of an hour in a proper A330 simulator, a £30 million rig used to train real pilots. I flew from Brize Norton to Heathrow, finding my own way with the help of the GPS and making "not a shabby landing at all" in the words of my instructor. Not so good on my second attempt at JFK, although all passengers would have walked away, cursing. The men and women who fly the aircraft go through every condition imaginable in the same simulator, be they RAF^▸ (Royal Air Force) or civilian, but every single one of them began their flying in a single engine fossil fuel-powered propellor-driven machine, using a scale rule and square protractor to plot a route on a chart, and a circular slide rule known as a flight computer from the days before there were electric computers. They would have looked out of the window to see where they were along the route, and done a lot of the calculations on paper that a modern airliner does automatically. Maybe, just maybe, the old skills make a better driver, just as they teach a pilot the principles of the art from the ground up. As an old man, I will forever cling to that belief.

[GBM]

... The writing is very much on the wall though, and a 10-year-old today is unlikely to need a manual licence because by then new cars will be electric and used ones are more likely to be automatic. Whether that's good or bad is a moot point. Had electric vehicles been predominant from the start of motoring, any young engineer proposing a different type of propulsion involving serial explosions and a whole lot of complicated gear to manage the process would have been laughed at.

With the cost of insurance and cars (especially for learners), a manual car will be all they can afford to start out on.
Starting with an automatic test will rule out their first vehicle being a cheap manual.

Now there's a thread - what was your learning to drive car, and what was your first 'own' car (or shared with parents)............

[Witham Bobby]

Now there's a thread - what was your learning to drive car, and what was your first 'own' car (or shared with parents)............

I was shunting small lorries around in my father's business' yard from age about 12, and from around 16 would drive his Volvo 245 on short journeys

First actual lessons for the driving test started in 1972 as soon as I could.  These lessons were in a Vauxhall Viva MkII saloon, complete with matchsticks shoved into the rubber seals of the  rear windows to help line up for the "reversing around a corner" task.

I passed a few of weeks later, and was rewarded with an Austin 1100 (very much 2nd hand) to use.  Carburettor would flood for no good reason, endless trouble with distributor cap and plug leads, and the long gearstick was a bit of a nightmare

So I've been driving for 53 years+, some of which have seen me drive over 25,000 miles.  Probably heading towards a million miles now

[grahame]

Now there's a thread - what was your learning to drive car, and what was your first 'own' car (or shared with parents)............

So there was me writing up an answer ... only to look back and see I already did, starting the thread 7 years ago. Perhaps my memory is failing  - should I not have remembered that? 


For new readers and in a different style

Learned to drive ... Jaguar MkII 2.4, automatic, silver blue, made in 1960 and purchased new by my Grandfather who, sadly, passed away in 1963.  My Grandmother kept it, my mother using it to take her shopping weekly and it was used for outings and holidays, and I learned to drive in it - taking my automatic test in about 1972/3.  We speculated afterwards that the test examiner had taken me off the normal routes to see how it performed on a faster road.  And I do recall being stopped by the police - I must have been 19 - driving Gran around at Connel Ferry on the ramp up to the bridge; doing my maths, she was about 90. Remember that holiday because we took the TS King George V out to Iona in what must have been her last or penultimate year.

First car I owned ... many years later; working in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) with site visits carrying heavy equipment I have a bright yellow Toyota Cressida company car, and when that was replaced I was allocated the inevitale (in those days) Ford Cortina. Even when I left the company (Tektronix Inc) to take a role in our little startup, the car for optimum tax purposes (and because again the role involved travel with heavy equipment) was a company vehicle. My ex owned a Ford Escort when we met and I took my manual test in that in 1978.  Still can't recall the first car I actually owned!

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Learner driver scammed over test feels 'hopeless'

A teenager who lost £200 after booking a driving test from scammers has called on the government to improve its booking system and waiting lists.

Lucy Sturt, 18, from Bishops Waltham, Hampshire, found a third party on social media to book a slot but never heard back from them after parting with her money. She said: "I'm feeling pretty depleted and just a bit hopeless because it limits what I can do, not being able to drive, which is really sad."

A Department for Transport (DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)) spokesperson recommended learners used the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) official site. The DVSA said it was committed to developing a new booking system.

Lucy describes the official website as "horrific", with attempts to log into it early in the mornings when new tests were released proving fruitless. Automated systems, or bots, block-book driving test slots, contributing to the problem. She is also regularly booted from the site when it assumes she herself is a bot.

According to figures obtained by the AA Driving School, the majority of test centres in the south of England have waiting times of more than five months.

Lucy searched Facebook groups advertising driving test cancellations and was directly messaged by an admin after leaving a post on one of them, with the discussion carried over to WhatsApp. "I probably knew it was too good to be true because the test was coming up in a few weeks, but because I was so desperate you just resort to things like that because you really want the end product," she said.

Lucy has called for a "complete reform" of the DVSA system, as well as "more safeguarding to stop these robots from bypassing the system".

Lucy's mother Chrissy Sturt said: "The scammers are exploiting desperation, and the desperation is caused by this centrally-broken system. We're just an ordinary little family. We can't compete with these bots and other systems that have been set up to grab all the slots."

...

In a statement the DVSA said it used "enhanced bot protection" to stop bots buying up tests, but that they were "constantly evolving and changing". It said it did not "run, approve or endorse any cancellation finder apps or services", and that learners should use the DVSA official channel to book their test. It added: "Any tests booked outside of the official DVSA booking site could be a scam and may result in the learner driver not having a test slot and losing their money."

Since January 2023, the DVSA has investigated more than 1,600 business accounts for booking violations. It said it was committed to developing a new system to both deal with the increase in demand and the use of bots which "cheat learners out of being able to easily book a test".

A DfT spokesperson said it had "inherited a frustrating system where many learners found themselves stuck in limbo, waiting to ditch their L plates, but unable to get a test". It said it instructed the DVSA to take further measures, and was seeing "early signs of improvement" though there was "still more to be done". It said the department would "make sure the DVSA continues to do all they can to reduce waiting times".

[grahame]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gpyekyvkko

A learner driver has failed their theory test 128 times, according to a new report.

The candidate would have spent about £3,000, findings released by the AA Driving School and based on official statistics have shown.

Another driver passed on their 75th attempt last year, costing them an estimated £1,700.

According to data from the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency, obtained by the AA, two learners have taken their practical test 37 times without passing.

It took 43 tries for another candidate to pass, the report said, potentially costing them up to £3,200.

I worry (is it just me?) that if someone takes so many attempts to pass a test that have a safety implication, their eventual passing might just be a stroke of luck on that occasion and they might not actually be safe on the road thereafter.  A car is a lethel weapon after all, probably responsible for more none-medical deaths in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) than knives.

Edit to add - about 1600 road deaths / 290 knife crime deaths last year .... UK figures

[Witham Bobby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4gpyekyvkko

A learner driver has failed their theory test 128 times, according to a new report.

The candidate would have spent about £3,000, findings released by the AA Driving School and based on official statistics have shown.

Another driver passed on their 75th attempt last year, costing them an estimated £1,700.

According to data from the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency, obtained by the AA, two learners have taken their practical test 37 times without passing.

It took 43 tries for another candidate to pass, the report said, potentially costing them up to £3,200.

I worry (is it just me?) that if someone takes so many attempts to pass a test that have a safety implication, their eventual passing might just be a stroke of luck on that occasion and they might not actually be safe on the road thereafter.  A car is a lethel weapon after all, probably responsible for more none-medical deaths in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) than knives.

Edit to add - about 1600 road deaths / 290 knife crime deaths last year .... UK figures

The regime for motorcycle licenses seems quite comprehensive

Pass an off-road training course (CBT^» (Campaign for Better Transport - visit)).  Then you can take a theory test.  Then you have two years to pass a two part practical motorbike riding test.  All very far removed from the motorbike test I took, back in the day, with the examiner watching you from the pavement and bravely stepping out in front of you to check your emergency stop

The death and injury toll for bikers remains horrific, none the less.  Many caused by careless car drivers; a large proportion of which are "SMIDSYs", where the car has been driven out from a side road into the path of an oncoming biker, resulting in a T-bone

[Chris from Nailsea]

An update, from the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Driving test rules to change in bid to stop bots booking slots

Only learner drivers will be able to book driving tests in plans aimed at reducing long waiting lists and preventing slots being sold at inflated prices.

Transport Secretary Heidi Alexander said limiting third parties from reselling slots would stop people being "exploited" by online bots. But she admitted to MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament, or Mile Post (a method of measuring the railway in miles and chains from a starting point - usually London), depending on context) on the Transport committee that waiting times for driving tests would not be brought down to seven weeks by summer 2026, the most recent deadline she set. The average waiting time was 21.8 weeks at the end of June.

Currently, instructors can book tests on behalf of their students, but this will be banned as part of the changes. Limits will also be placed on the number of times a driver can move or swap a test, and the area they can move a test to once they have booked it.

Amelia Lightfoot, a 20-year-old learner driver from Devon, said it took more than a month for her to secure a test, having made daily visits to the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) website to book a slot. She said when she eventually got a date, it was six months away. But she failed that test and is now struggling to book another. "Because I live in a rural area with very poor public transport, having a driving licence would significantly improve my quality of life. The situation is incredibly frustrating and feels very unfair," she said.

Additionally, 36 examiners from the Ministry of Defence (MoD) will be brought into the DVSA to try to reduce the backlog. These examiners are civil servants, not military personnel.

The DVSA has recruited 316 new examiners, but Alexander said that has resulted in a net gain of only 40 as others have left. Driving examiners will be offered a "retention payment" of £5,000 from next year to try and keep them in the role.

Ruth Cadbury MP, the chair of the Transport Committee, said efforts to replace the current test booking system were moving at a "glacial pace" and it was "a shame" that the summer 2026 target would be missed. "We will continue to ask the Department for Transport for regular updates on this issue."

(BBC article continues)

[CyclingSid]

Must admit I can't remember much of my learning to drive a car except my instructor telling me to book a test at Henley, too many failed in Reading on the hill start, and driving out of the test centre car park in Henley flapping my arm out of the window and the examiner saying shut the window its cold. I believe hand signals in cars are long gone, using indicators seem increasingly rare.
HGV learning in the Army on a Bedford RL. The gear stick was back next to you so if you tried to use it like a car you banged your elbow on the back of the cab and got a dead arm. My instructor smoked a very ornate pipe. He was a member of  the Royal Antediluvian Order of Buffaloes, apparently the more ornate the pipe the higher up you were in the organisation. Can;t remember seeing a pipe being smoked in years. Do they have e-pipes !?

[Western Pathfinder]

Sid, good morning yes I hey do have epipes,mostly in Yorkshire Ha,
I infact have one ,it's an infernal contraption,which when in use produces more vapour than a Castle at full reg up the Lickey,useful f you need to have both hands free ,but otherwise impractical.

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Learners lose £164k as driving school shuts down


Documents show NxtGen Driving Academy, which was based in Stowmarket but taught students across the region, owes hundreds of thousands of pounds

Hundreds of learner drivers have been left more than £164,000 out of pocket after a driving school closed down and are "unlikely" to get their money back, an insolvency firm has said.

NxtGen Driving Academy, part of NG^▸ (Natural Gas) Driving Group Ltd, taught students across the East of England but ceased trading on 3 November. Documents seen by the BBC show that, before the firm was shut down, 399 customers had paid the company for driving lessons that will not be fulfilled.

A spokesperson for NxtGen already apologised for "any inconvenience and loss" customers might experience but said it "had no choice" but to close. NxtGen appointed the liquidator, AMS Business Recovery Limited, which expects the company to formally be put into liquidation on Thursday.

In a letter sent to creditors, which has also been seen by the BBC, the liquidator warned that students would likely be left out of pocket. "Any funds recovered from the company's assets will be distributed in accordance with UK^▸ (United Kingdom) insolvency law," the firm said. "Based on present information, unsecured creditors, such as customers who have paid deposits for lessons, are unlikely to receive a distribution."

(Personal stories appear here, which I have chosen not to quote in detail, but they are included in the BBC article)

NxtGen Driving Academy described itself as "one of the fastest growing driving schools in East Anglia". Instructors were based in Suffolk, Norfolk, Staffordshire, Buckinghamshire, Essex, Cambridgeshire, Sussex, North Wales and Cheshire.

Some of the instructors were employed directly by the company, while others ran their own franchises. In addition to learners, HMRC is also owed in the region of £180,000, suppliers and service providers more than £45,000, and the firm's 19 employees more than £33,000, according to the company's statement of affairs.

One of the firm's employees, who did not wish to be named, told the BBC she had turned down a new job at a different employer weeks before NxtGen shut down. "I felt betrayed because I was loyal to that company and I think the way this has been handled is absolutely disgusting," she said. "We've got families but eight weeks before Christmas they have done a toilet on us from a great height, so it is devastating."