Project Churchward - future regional fleet for the West, new rolling stock to replace DMUs

[whole diary]

[grahame]

"Project Chuchward" has been vaguely around for a while; good to see some flesh being put on the bones.  I seem to recall plans being to order a new fleet of 17x units  ( a dozen at 4 cars each) to run Portsmouth / Cardiff, but then that got canned with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) electrification costing rather a lot and releasing the turbos.

I have seen some very sensible Network Rail long term aspirations for further electrification and use of battery / alternative fuels on remaining lines to the exclusion of diesel traction in due course.   What is lacking in my mind is the work being done on the ground to have this actually happen - perhaps pump priming is going on behind the scenes or unnoticed, but I'm darned if I have seen it!

It would make sense for the "next stage" to complete electrification from Chippenham via Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway and Patchway (overhead) , and from Basingstoke, Southampton and Eastleigh to Salisbury (perhaps 3rd rail) to allow Cardiff / Portsmouth service to make use of batteries from Bathampton to Salisbury (or Wilton?).  Heavy freight would/will provide an impetus to have electrification into the Westbury area too ...

[broadgage]

Some big decisions needed on electrification here. Surely, we can't have yet another stop-gap fleet of anything still needing diesel?

I support electrification, but remain of the view that all new electric trains should have a battery or a diesel engine to run basic on board services or proceed at much reduced performance when the wires come down.
Having incurred the cost and weight penalty, then this battery or engine could be used to a very limited extent in passenger service.
Electrification should be cheaper and simpler with the odd short gap in problematic locations such as inadequate clearances under bridges.
In most cases trains could coast through such gaps, but a secondary power source seems prudent. Also valuable for diversions, to Waterloo for example, or excursions to heritage railways.

[Bob_Blakey]

.....Heard other electric islands were being looked at.....

How's about this for a completely bonkers idea? Electrification of the (entirely self-contained) Devon Metro route between Exmouth & Paignton on which the principal 150/2 rolling stock is approaching it's fortieth birthday.

[eightonedee]

It would make sense for the "next stage" to complete electrification from Chippenham via Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway and Patchway (overhead) , and from Basingstoke, Southampton and Eastleigh to Salisbury (perhaps 3rd rail) to allow Cardiff / Portsmouth service to make use of batteries from Bathampton to Salisbury (or Wilton?).  Heavy freight would/will provide an impetus to have electrification into the Westbury area too ...

....and to Oxford (better still Banbury as well so that all Thames Valley main line and "Oxford Canal Line" services can be run by those Electrostars that always seem to be hanging around the Reading Depot).

[Electric train]

The next major National timetable change is 2029 to 2031, the railways next 5 year Control Period CP8 (CP7^▸ (Control Period 7 - The five year period between 2024 and 2029) is 2024-2029).  The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) via the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), the TOCs have been in discussion with Network Rail.  The TOCs have had to produce a report to the DfT what is required rolling stock renewals, example are the Networkers (465/6 165/6 etc)

Change of rolling stock leads to a change in infrastructure -
Train care facilities,
Stations
Traction power (substations, Grid supplies OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") / third rail), 
Signalling (roll out of ETCS^▸ (European Train Control System) ie in cab signalling) 
Track layouts

Some of this will rollover into CP9

[anthony215]

Latest suggestions is that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) are to take on the class 175s to allow the final class 255s hsts to be withdrawn as well as to allow and internal cascade of stock such as  the 150s for the Devon and Cornwall metro services, 165s for metrowest around Bristol and 158s to increase capacity on Cardiff to Portsmouth hbr services

[REVUpminster]

175s going to Exeter in place of 158s is doing the rounds on websites.  Problem with them they will not increase capacity at Barnstaple (if a 3 car 175) or Okehampton (if a 2 car 175).  Inevitably some will end up  Paignton-Exmouth as do the 158s. Also they would have to be cleared to Axminster especially if the service is increased.

If a five car (2+3)  is used at Barnstaple to increase capacity, could it still reverse at Exmouth siding.

Two 150 units would be released from Okehampton, but they will probably be needed in Cornwall so Paignton-Exmouth will still need turbos.

[Noggin]

Bet they'll look lovely in green though :-)

[anthony215]

175s going to Exeter in place of 158s is doing the rounds on websites.  Problem with them they will not increase capacity at Barnstaple (if a 3 car 175) or Okehampton (if a 2 car 175).  Inevitably some will end up  Paignton-Exmouth as do the 158s. Also they would have to be cleared to Axminster especially if the service is increased.

I've been told this by a few people who are usually pretty spot on.

No doubt dft have realised they can get a good deal abd can reduce costs by replacing castle hsts and dont need to refurbish the 175s as tfw already did it. It also frees up class 150/158/165's to  boost capacity on other routes such as Cardiff to Portsmouth hbr  and metro West services around Bristol. 150/2's can be boost capacity in Cornwall etc.

There was talk of seated Barnstaple services possibly worked by a pair of 2 carriage class 175s

If a five car (2+3)  is used at Barnstaple to increase capacity, could it still reverse at Exmouth siding.

Two 150 units would be released from Okehampton, but they will probably be needed in Cornwall so Paignton-Exmouth will still need turbos.

Edit to clarify quoting - grahame

[RichardB]

Interesting to see the talk about the 175s.  Surely it's more 158s and 150s from Wales that we need?  The 175s would need to be route cleared and then there are the additional complications of managing another quite small fleet of trains.  I'd be surprised to see this happen.

[REVUpminster]

Interesting to see the talk about the 175s.  Surely it's more 158s and 150s from Wales that we need?  The 175s would need to be route cleared and then there are the additional complications of managing another quite small fleet of trains.  I'd be surprised to see this happen.

I think the idea is to replace the 158s at Exeter so they would still only maintain 2 fleets with 165/166s stabling at Exeter as they do now but maintained at Bristol.

[RichardB]

Interesting to see the talk about the 175s.  Surely it's more 158s and 150s from Wales that we need?  The 175s would need to be route cleared and then there are the additional complications of managing another quite small fleet of trains.  I'd be surprised to see this happen.

I think the idea is to replace the 158s at Exeter so they would still only maintain 2 fleets with 165/166s stabling at Exeter as they do now but maintained at Bristol.

Of course, we'll see in time.   If the 175s come to Exeter, as well as route clearance, all the crews will need to be trained on them and Exeter Depot staff will need to be trained on how to maintain them, as well as have a stock of spares on hand.   None of it is impossible but it would be a big investment (in time and money) that could be avoided if some of the Welsh 158s and 150s come our way instead.

[eightonedee]

Am I correct in thinking that class 175s cannot work in multiple with class 150/158s? If so, this is a problem, and I would agree with Richard B that class 158s would be preferable.

I also wonder (idle speculation from a layman) whether one of the problems with stock availability is that 165/166s cannot work with 150/158s so swapping out failed units is often not possible.

[stuving]

According to today's Sunday Times, "GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), the West Country operator, this weekend announced its plan for 100 battery trains to serve Bristol, Devon, and Cornwall, as well as routes including Cardiff to Portsmouth and Exeter to Penzance." (I can't see anything public from GWR, but then putting that out over a weekend would be odd anyway.)

The article as a whole is a rehash of previous arguments about avoiding OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") and the need to decarbonise within the lifetime of any new stock, but that bit does claim to be factual. It quotes the engineering director (Simon Green) as saying he expects they will agree with the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) to issue a tender by the end of the year.

There is also a bit about Siemens being a "battery train supplier", based on the entry into service of their Desiro Verve. They seem confident the product is now going to get a lot of interest from all the TOCS, which is fair enough. However, you might wonder whether "it can recharge from the domestic grid rather than relying on high-voltage lines, and be fully charged in 20 minutes" means anything.

[Noggin]

Much as I'd rather see proper OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE"), based on a few things I've read recently, it actually seems quite reasonable.

Can't see the full article but suggests things have gone well with the Greenford trial, which was designed to prove that everything could be reliable and the fast charging systems work well - see https://railway-news.com/uk-gwr-commences-fast-charging-battery-powered-train-trial/.

IIRC^▸ ('if I recall/remember/read correctly'), the fast chargers use a standard 3-phase mains supply (400V AC^▸ (Air Conditioning, or Alternating Current (electricity), depending on context)) which is relatively quick and easy to install, with far fewer H&S^▸ (Health and Safety) headaches than OLE. The time to recharge was advertised as 3 1/2 minutes, which if reliable, should mean that the technology is certainly suitable for most of the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) branches from Windsor to St Ives.

As for the longer distance services, there's an interesting trial between Hitachi and Transpennine at the moment, replacing a single diesel power pack in an 802 with a similar weight battery power pack (Nissan Leaf batteries in case you were interested) which is recharged from the overheads and braking. They reckon the distance off the wires is 80 to 100km, which isn't enough for Exeter to Penzance, but would enable fiddly stretches like Dawlish to be left unwired, and with more efficient batteries and replacing fuel tanks, perhaps the 120ish km between Bristol and Weymouth could be reasonable. More at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg8J0ONy3Go in case anyone is interested.