Project Churchward - future regional fleet for the West, new rolling stock to replace DMUs

[whole diary]

[broadgage]

I am a bit doubtful about claims made for ultra-fast charging from a standard 400 volt, 3 phase supply.
The greatest load that can be connected to an existing substation is often about 315 amps or 400 amps, presuming that the substation has enough spare capacity. If insufficient capacity is available then a new substation will be required.

More than 315 or 400 amps will require a new substation, that could if desired be at the higher voltage of 690 volts (three phase, 4 wire systems at 400 volts phase to neutral and 690 volts between phases are catching on in industry, so the transformer will be readily available.)

400 amps at three phase 400 volts is about 276 kilowatts, perhaps a bit more in practice as the actual voltage supplied tends to be at least 415 volts.
276 kw will take at least a few hours to charge a reasonable size battery train. In the case of a 2,000kwh battery then 276 kw input will take about 9 hours, fine for overnight charging but limited for charging in service.

Use of multiple batteries each intended for an electric car may have the merits of competitive price due to the mass production of these batteries.

[Electric train]

I am a bit doubtful about claims made for ultra-fast charging from a standard 400 volt, 3 phase supply.
The greatest load that can be connected to an existing substation is often about 315 amps or 400 amps, presuming that the substation has enough spare capacity. If insufficient capacity is available then a new substation will be required.

More than 315 or 400 amps will require a new substation, that could if desired be at the higher voltage of 690 volts (three phase, 4 wire systems at 400 volts phase to neutral and 690 volts between phases are catching on in industry, so the transformer will be readily available.)

400 amps at three phase 400 volts is about 276 kilowatts, perhaps a bit more in practice as the actual voltage supplied tends to be at least 415 volts.
276 kw will take at least a few hours to charge a reasonable size battery train. In the case of a 2,000kwh battery then 276 kw input will take about 9 hours, fine for overnight charging but limited for charging in service.

Use of multiple batteries each intended for an electric car may have the merits of competitive price due to the mass production of these batteries.

I believe the "fast charging" system at West Ealing is basically "pump storage" an 11kV / 400V substation charges a set of line side batteries which provide the high current to charge to train; the line side batteries being charged at a slower rate between train charging.

There was (may still even be) a proposal to use battery trains on the Marsh Link (Ashford - Hastings) the train batteries being charged when the contact the 750V third rail at each end.  Sounds like a good idea however the fast charging current would mean a new 3 1/2 MW substation to be built at each end.

Battery trains are expensive in terms of line side infrastructure to fast charge them   

[stuving]

I've found what was behind the article: Siemens put out a kind of flyer about their battery trains today. Presumably The Times got that in advance.

Siemens’ British battery trains set to save £3.5bn and consign diesel trains to history

•     Siemens Mobility's battery trains, to be assembled in Goole, Yorkshire could replace aging diesel fleets for the likes of Chiltern, Great Western Railway (GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)), Northern, ScotRail, TransPennine Express (TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express)) and Transport for Wales (TfW^▸ (Transport for Wales)) and run on East-West Rail, within the next decade.
•     Only small sections of track would need to be electrified, with fast-charging at key points on routes supplied from the domestic grid via Siemens’ innovative Rail Charging Converters (RCCs).
•     This would save £3.5 billion and 12million tonnes in CO2 emissions for Britain’s railways over 35 years.

They have been promoting the Verve as a 200 km/h Desiro for nearly ten years, and don't appear to have sold any. They offer all cars motored except those with pantograph and battery (or hydrogen fuel cell). The article cited them (with batteries) as just gone into service in Germany, but those are branded Mireo B plus and are for 160 km/h. All a bit puzzling, especially for the GWR and other DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) replacements where 200 km/h is not needed.

I'm still none the wiser about what they mean by "domestic grid". It sounds like they are saying you can avoid the delay and expense of getting a "traditional" national grid supply for OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE"), but then they aren't the only ones who could do that for a small section. Here's another quote on this:

That means only small sections of the routes and/or particular stations have to be electrified with overhead line equipment (OLE), making it much quicker and less disruptive to replace diesel trains compared to full electrification. 

This OLE can also be installed much more quickly using Siemens Mobility’s innovative Rail Charging Converter (RCC), which makes it possible to plug directly into the domestic grid – potentially cutting delivery times for OLE from seven years to as little as 18 months.

I'm guessing it's a small SFC fed at 11 or 33 kV. I have seen nothing to suggest they offer buffer battery storage at trackside.

[anthony215]

If Filton Bank is wired perhaps see if batteries could be fitted to class 350/2's to use on the Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbour services.

Meanwhile looks like GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) will be having 20 kass 175 units

[grahame]

Meanwhile looks like GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) will be having 20 kass 175 units

Class 175 were introduced in 1997; coupling system: Scharfenberg Type 330. So yet another set of older trains that can't couple to others cascaded after they're superceded by something new on the "important" lines they were built for.

Having said that, yes please ... 20 "new" units would be great, provided that they add substantially to the reliable available carriage count on GWR.

[IndustryInsider]

If Class 175s arrive then it will be a reasonably short-term thing of 5 or so years, until this new generation of stock is built and enters service.

The stock would be most useful in that respect, even if not the perfect fit for a few reasons.

[JayMac]

Class 175s.

Did GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) learn nothing from their terrible experience with the Class 180s from the same Alstom Coradia family? They should steer well clear.

[IndustryInsider]

That was one of my reasons against!

GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) will have sod all say in the matter though sadly.

[a-driver]

Class 175s.

Did GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) learn nothing from their terrible experience with the Class 180s from the same Alstom Coradia family? They should steer well clear.

Beggars can’t be choosers.

[anthony215]

Looks like next few weeks should see a 175 making its way to laira  depot

[TonyK]

Looks like next few weeks should see a 175 making its way to laira  depot

With a plan for more to follow?

[IndustryInsider]

Very quick work by the new government! 

[anthony215]

It's been posted on other railway forums and I've asked one member of gwr staff I know  that I know and they've also said its happening but there's been a memo from aslef to their members at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) that all 27 class 175s will be heading west soon.

Hopefully if the plan remains as I wad told the units would be based mainly at laira  but will also be put on Exeter to Barnstaple and Okehampton services to free up class 150/158's

[TonyK]

I wonder if they'll keep the names. Seeing "Valhalla - Blackpool Pleasure Beach" or "Eisteddfod Genedlaethol Cymru" rumbling through Crediton would be a novelty, although I'm not sure the names survived the last repainting.

[Richard Fairhurst]

Class 175s.

Did GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) learn nothing from their terrible experience with the Class 180s from the same Alstom Coradia family? They should steer well clear.

I believe there's a significant difference between 175s and 180s. The engine raft design on both is said to be problematic and prone to overheating, but the smaller engine in the 175s means everything is less tightly packed together and ventilation is better.

Certainly ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former Train Operating Company)) seemed to operate 175s without much issue for many years, until TfW^▸ (Transport for Wales) transferred the maintenance contract from Alstom at Chester to CAF^▸ (Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles, Spanish train manufacturer) who had less familiarity with the units... at which point the fires started. (Shades of the 180s which were pretty good under Old Oak Common maintenance and less so when transferred elsewhere.)

But this is definitely not my specialist subject and others will know more.