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Author Topic: London to Frankfurt and Geneva - direct trains from Eurostar?  (Read 2141 times)
eightonedee
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« on: February 21, 2025, 12:44:02 »

Not sure if this is the correct board, but this has cheered me up considerably-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cg5d6l5lz4jo
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2025, 17:11:08 »

With thanks for starting this topic, eightonedee, I've moved it to this board, rather than our 'entirely overseas' board.

I'll also quote some detail from that BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) article:

Quote
New direct train routes from London to Germany, Switzerland and France could open as part of plans to boost passenger numbers at St Pancras station.

London St Pancras Highspeed, which owns the station and operates the track to the Channel Tunnel in Folkestone, has already set out proposals to increase capacity for international train travel from 1,800 passengers per hour to almost 5,000.  It now wants to attract different train operators to offer a range of services in Europe.

Eurostar currently holds a monopoly on the trains through the Channel Tunnel with routes to Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam.

London St Pancras Highspeed and Getlink have signed an agreement that will help them to commit to expanding rail connectivity between the UK (United Kingdom) and Europe.

"Many European cities could be reached directly by train in under six hours which we believe is really competitive with short-haul air travel," said a spokesperson for London St Pancras Highspeed.

Yann Leriche, chief executive of Getlink, which owns Eurotunnel, said: "We are keen to drive forward attractive opportunities for low-carbon mobility with a range of new destinations in Germany, Switzerland and France."

Getlink believes it is possible for train services to Bordeaux, Cologne, Frankfurt, Geneva, Marseille and Zurich to be created.  No set timeline has been revealed as yet.

Eurostar dropped services between London and Disneyland Paris in June 2023, and no longer has routes between London and the south of France.

Virgin Group and Evolyn are two companies developing plans for rival services to Eurostar that could take passengers to the newly proposed destinations.  Virgin acknowledged that it would be a "huge undertaking" to establish a new cross-Channel operator but said the route was "ripe for change with plenty of room and potential for new competition at St Pancras and through the Tunnel".

Competition between different companies on the route would benefit all customers, a spokesperson added.  London St Pancras Highspeed and Getlink have signed an agreement that will help them to commit to expanding rail connectivity between the UK and Europe.

Robert Sinclair, chief executive of London St Pancras Highspeed, said demand for international train travel was growing.  He said his company would work with Getlink "to encourage new and existing train operators to expand capacity and launch new destinations unlocking the potential of a fully connected Europe".

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grahame
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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2025, 17:33:07 »

St Pancras plans ...

Which got me wondering who St Pancras was / is ...
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2025, 17:47:46 »

From Wikipedia:

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The station's name comes from the St. Pancras parish, whose name originates from the fourth-century Christian boy martyr Pancras of Rome.

Pancras (Latin: Sanctus Pancratius) was a Roman citizen who converted to Christianity and was beheaded for his faith at the age of fourteen, around the year 304. His name is Greek (Πανκράτιος Pankrátios), meaning 'all-powerful'.

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William Huskisson MP (Member of Parliament, or Mile Post (a method of measuring the railway in miles and chains from a starting point - usually London), depending on context) was the first person to be killed by a train while crossing the tracks, in 1830.  Many more have died in the same way since then.  Don't take a chance: Stop, Look, Listen.

"Level crossings are safe, unless they are used in an unsafe manner."  Discuss.
eXPassenger
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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2025, 18:52:09 »

How do these plans fit in with the UK (United Kingdom) government requirement for entry checking before boarding?  or is there a secret plan to join Schengen?
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ChrisB
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« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2025, 19:01:48 »

There are plans to expand the check-in at St Pancras I believe. Featured in the news 6-9 months ago?
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stuving
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« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2025, 20:04:38 »

How do these plans fit in with the UK (United Kingdom) government requirement for entry checking before boarding?  or is there a secret plan to join Schengen?

HS1 (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel)/St Pancras has a programme to increase passenger capacity. Last year Active Thinking led a study for them into how much of an increase was possible, and what "modern approaches and technological solutions" could be used. Railway Gazette reported:
Quote
It found that expanded infrastructure and enhanced border security processes could increase capacity from 1 800 to around 2 400 passengers/h in the next three to four years. Redesigning the layout of the international area could see an increase of up to 5 000 passengers/h in the long term.

Then earlier this year a PQQ came out for an implementation study based on that. That closed last week, so while the contract notice is still on line the document defining the study has now disappeared.

The only bit of the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) report I can see that might be called news is
Quote
London St Pancras Highspeed and Getlink have signed an agreement that will help them to commit to expanding rail connectivity between the UK and Europe.

This agreement with Getlink is another bit of the same overall programme, and must have been agreed some time ago even if only signed now - and even then it's only an agreement to have an agreement.


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eightonedee
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2025, 10:29:33 »

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or is there a secret plan to join Schengen?

Let's make it an overt one - I'd support it!
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eXPassenger
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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2025, 17:39:22 »


I was more concerned with incoming trains as HM Government has wanted to perform immigration procedures on the continent to remove the possibility of arriving passengers who are denied entry claiming asylum.
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« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2025, 07:34:41 »

How do these plans fit in with the UK (United Kingdom) government requirement for entry checking before boarding?  or is there a secret plan to join Schengen?

I was more concerned with incoming trains as HM Government has wanted to perform immigration procedures on the continent to remove the possibility of arriving passengers who are denied entry claiming asylum.

Both the EU» (European Union - about) and the UK are moving towards the electronic type visa, so instead of queuing to have your Passport stamped provided you are registered for the visa your Passport and face is scanned at the departure points and the barrier opens and on you travel.

The e-visa has to be the future
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grahame
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« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2025, 09:06:20 »

Both the EU» (European Union - about) and the UK (United Kingdom) are moving towards the electronic type visa, so instead of queuing to have your Passport stamped provided you are registered for the visa your Passport and face is scanned at the departure points and the barrier opens and on you travel.

The e-visa has to be the future

Indeed - history is littered with changes that have made things work far quicker in less space.  I suspect that more people use Exmouth station (random choice) with one platform than they did with - well, how many was it before? - and with run round loops, water towers, stations staff and much more ...

Perhaps with compact scanning of international passengers, Ashford International could re-open for that, a curve (sorry - straight line) put in allowing direct running from Godstone to Reigate, and we could see international trains from Zurich and Berlin to Ashford, changing there for the London expresses (to not only St Pancras but also Charing Cross and Victoria), for Fishguard via Reading for passengers to Ireland, and to Bournemouth via Hastings, Brighton and Southampton
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rogerw
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« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2025, 11:01:24 »

The problem is not just passport checking but the need to scan all luggage. I use Eurostar 4 or 6 times a year and the security check always takes far longer than passport control. I wonder if these checks are really necessary. The Gotthard base tunnel is longer that the Channel tunnel and checks are not considered necessary for that.
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« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2025, 16:13:08 »

The problem is not just passport checking but the need to scan all luggage. I use Eurostar 4 or 6 times a year and the security check always takes far longer than passport control. I wonder if these checks are really necessary. The Gotthard base tunnel is longer that the Channel tunnel and checks are not considered necessary for that.

When the Channel Tunnel was first opened, IRA terrorism was a significant risk, hence many of the security measures.

Arguably its still a major target - unlike the Swiss, we have been involved in a lot of conflicts over the years. 

Also, if I recall correctly, the Spanish have airline-style security on high-speed rail routes too.
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grahame
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2025, 04:58:27 »

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cded0zypxl7o

Quote
Eurostar plans direct trains to Frankfurt and Geneva

Eurostar has said it plans to launch direct train services from London to Germany and Switzerland.

A fleet of up to 50 new trains, costing around €2bn (£1.7bn), is planned to be up and running by the early 2030s, the firm announced.

Travel time between London and Frankfurt will be about five hours, and around five hours and 20 minutes to Geneva.

But there are questions over the expansion as the firm needs to make sure it has enough space for more trains at its depot in east London.

Eurostar's boss said there was strong demand for train travel across Europe, despite the challenges of higher operational costs and inflation squeezing customer budgets.

"A new golden age of international sustainable travel is here," said chief executive Gwendoline Cazenave, adding that customers were "wanting to go further by rail than ever before".

The introduction of the new trains, which will replace some older ones, will lead to a 30% increase in trains that service London.

The firm is also planning for the proposed new fleet to service a direct line to Geneva from both Amsterdam and Brussels.

It said it was working with partners to get the new lines up and running.

It is not clear if the routes to Frankfurt and Geneva will include stops on the way for passengers to board or leave.

Personal view is that Eurostar policies put the company and maximising income way, way ahead of environmental issues and providing an economic service. 

I am still trying to work out why it costs them £30 to provide a reservation for someone who has already paid a long distance / global travel pass ... or why they limit the number of such reservations made on their trains and defeat the whole objective of these passes of easier travel all at a single price.   You can still get seats if the allocation of reservations has gone, but you are looking at hundreds of pounds.   If you ask, some will tell you it's the need for immigration fees, etc ... but that's called out as a smokescreen when you note that they charge the same reservation fee on their Paris to Amsterdam service which is within Schengen.

Please post contrary evidence, but with other companies looking to run a wider variety of services from London through the Channel Tunnel, I wonder if the Eurostar owners are more concerned with protecting their market here rather than majoring on looking out for / after passengers or the environment.  The objectives often co-incide but they are not the same nor close parallels.

Eurostar is not alone in what may appear to be looking to maintain a monopoly that's not really in the long term interests of vibrant and growing passenger traffic. 

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grahame
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« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2025, 07:02:00 »

Press release from Railfuture:

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Railfuture comments on Eurostar announcement. Planning new trains to Germany and Switzerland:

It looks as if Eurostar has finally decided to expand. The Eurostar 50 new trains order has been around for a while but without stated commitment to run from Britain.

The "concentrate in the core, high fares" strategy is fine in the short run if you have no wider economic objectives but it has opened up a plethora of open access proposals.

Perhaps the most significant result is for Eurostar to realise that they are best placed to expand with less barriers to entry than new entrants. The key is to do this fast enough to keep new entrants at bay. The announcement to add new routes from London to Germany and Switzerland is strategically significant in this respect.

Open access has, in this way, already served a purpose without even running a train. In strategic terms this is good. Railfuture welcomes this development but makes it clear that this still leaves scope for more services and more competition, particularly on the existing Paris route and to the largest air market from Britain, after Paris and Amsterdam, i.e. Spain.

Also, sooner or later, someone will realise that there are other cities in Britain that have a huge air market, More people travel from Manchester to Paris than from London to any city in Switzerland.

Railfuture contends that the timing and the economics are right for sustainable rail travel from Britain as is the market appetite.

Railfuture's suggested choice of preferred open access routes.

This is ambitious for obvious reasons against the present situation but far less so in market terms. It also makes the presumption that the current preoccupation with immigration and security will be eased, with new technology and EU» (European Union - about) technology.

This proposes two strategic stops en route here, Stratford in long haul fast services to take about 30% volume to ease St Pancras, and Ashford for the Kent catchment area with its propensity to travel to Continental Europe.

Stratford or in some case, Lille would largely replace St Pancras as the interchange point from NW England.

Draft list of contenders.

Eurostar's proposals plus;
Paris route competition

    London, Stratford - Paris (fast)
    London, Ashford - Calais, Lille, Paris
    London, Ashford - Charles de Gaulle Airport, Disneyland Paris, Lyon. Delete Lyon, add Tours, Bordeaux
    Manchester, Crewe (Merseyside and North West hub), Rugby(West Midlands hub), Stratford - Lille, Paris (all with long platforms)


South of France and Spain route competition

    London, Stratford- Barcelona, Madrid (fast)
    London, Ashford - Lyon, Avignon, Marseille
    London, Ashford - Lyon, Montpellier, Perpignan, Barcelona. Delete Barcelona, possibly combined to Avignon


Add

    London, Ashford, Charles de Gaulle Airport, Disneyland, LeMans, Nantes, with multiple service stops to provide frequency to CdG and Disneyland.


London, Ashford- Germany route competition

    London, Stratford - Hannover, Berlin (fast)
    London, Stratford - Brussels, Koln, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Zurich, Milan


Belgium, Netherlands route competition

    Manchester, Crewe, Rugby, Stratford - Lille, Antwerp, Rotterdam, Amsterdam


Nord Pas de Calais shuttle in cooperation on fares with SE High Speed and domestic Ashford - Calais, Lille

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notes to editors:

Railfuture is the UK (United Kingdom)'s leading independent organisation campaigning for better rail services for both passengers and freight.

Railfuture's website can be found at: www.railfuture.org.uk
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