Expansion of Transport for London and London Travel Areas

[whole diary]

[grahame]

On Saturday, I'm planning to go to London for an indoor location. It's part of my "every Saturday out" plan and I'll be starting from Melksham some 100 miles away.  "Travel for London" but should it be "Transport for London" (TfL^» (Transport for London - about)) all the way?

The Underground ^(*) has expanded out of tunnels beneath the cities of London and Westminster into the suburbs, and 55% of it isn't actually underground.  Total around 250 miles.

That has expanded into the Overground - six lines with recent names that I'm getting used to https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/culture-and-heritage/londons-transport-a-history/london-overground of a further 100 miles, with some sections distinctly underground or - between Shadwell and Wapping for example - actually under the River Thames in Brunel (Snr)s original tunnel.

Transport for London Rail runs a further 65 miles or so, from Reading and Heathrow to the west of London, underground through the centre, and out to Shenfield and to Woolwich, sharing infrastructure in the outer area with the national network (Network Rail) but exclusive in the inner tunnels.  It's now known as the Elizabeth Line

Network South East runs all the way out from London to the Kent and Essex coasts ... and up country and out west as far as Weymouth, Exeter (but only via Honiton) and Hereford (via Evesham) but NOT West of Didcot or Bedwyn - not an operational entity any longer, except that fares, railcards, etc have different rules in that area.

^(*) - the Underground is sometimes referred to as "the tube" though this term really should cover only the deep level narrow bore lines.   The District, Metropolitan, Circle and Hammersmith and City lines are built to a larger gauge, typically constructed using and a cut and cover technique, and are much nearer the surface - they are not tubes.

* Should "Network South East" extend out further / have a regularised shape to places that are - say - less than a 100 minute journey from London (3 days a week communising range)?  

* Should Transport for London Rail extend to cover more services - there is a very useful piece ((here)) from RailFuture which looks at TfL's desire to take over Great Northern services from Moorgate, and in some ways it's a curiosity that Thameslink isn't a part of the TfL brand.  

* Should lines such as West Ealing to Greenford be included into the Overground?

[Mark A]

In 2025, Network Southeast is a magnificent quirk, yes. That said, a permanent debt of gratitude to Chris Green for what he did there, but as to its quirkiness, it reminds me of the arrangements for fares out in... is it the direction of Amersham, where, is there a faint fingerprint of commercial arrangements between the Metropolitan Railway and the long-vanished Great Central?

Mark

[Electric train]

My thoughts on the direction of travel (pun intended  ) of the current Government with the devolution to an elected Mayor structure of local Government is to hand over the "Metro" type of services to the Mayors / local authorities.

So I can see for instance in London the remaining, mainly the Southern Region (SE Trains, Southern, SWT^▸ (South West Trains)) Metro services being transferred to TfL^» (Transport for London - about), leaving the more regional and intercity with GBR^▸ (Great British Railways).  The National infrastructure will I feel remain with GBR (former Network Rail)

Whether the all changes will take place this side of the next 2029 General Election is the question, certainly some will where the ToC is part of GBR

[TonyN]

Hereford (via Evesham)

Only to Worcester Forgate Street (via Evesham) These days.

[ChrisB]

My thoughts on the direction of travel (pun intended  ) of the current Government with the devolution to an elected Mayor structure of local Government is to hand over the "Metro" type of services to the Mayors / local authorities.

I think you are mistaken in that the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), having transferred the services to GBR^▸ (Great British Railways), will then move them again to the elected mayors.

Yes, the mayors will have overall control of what services are offered in their Metro areas, but I think that'll remain through 'requests' to GBR.

[Electric train]

My thoughts on the direction of travel (pun intended  ) of the current Government with the devolution to an elected Mayor structure of local Government is to hand over the "Metro" type of services to the Mayors / local authorities.

I think you are mistaken in that the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), having transferred the services to GBR^▸ (Great British Railways), will then move them again to the elected mayors.

Yes, the mayors will have overall control of what services are offered in their Metro areas, but I think that'll remain through 'requests' to GBR.

There are sections of DfT and ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road, formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) who are being moved into GBR, the devolution of local / metro services is a distinct possibility

[ellendune]

I put I don't know, not because I don't but because my answer does not fit any of the above.

I have no problem with Overground Underground names or even TfL^» (Transport for London - about) Rail.  They are marketing labels that make no difference. 

I don't care whether Overground or TfL services are run by GBR^▸ (Great British Railways) or TfL so long as they work.

I don't have a problem with the legacy of Network South East but I do have a problem with the pricing outside its area as they is why anytime fares are so high outside Network South East because they were never controlled fares. However extending it won't solve the legacy problems. It needs fares reform.