Burnham urged to extend railcard discounts to over 30s

[whole diary]

[TaplowGreen]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/burnham-rail-fares-commuters-adam-dance-b3033468.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawTtCNxwZG9mBWV4dG4DYWVtAjEwAGJyaWQRMUFiZkpXSVlaNVVUcndWVE9zcnRjBmFwcF9pZBAyMjIwMzkxNzg4MjAwODkyAAEec9CyIOW_F6MCBceAC8Njym5EiWNec4B2edzDkXF2BvCp9w93EzoQlVYdcus_aem_f6UImbDWggcLSLKJjSNC8Q

Interesting idea.

[Richard Fairhurst]

Hm. It is, but I'm a bit sceptical about claims like this:

Zoe Billingham, the director of the IPPR North think tank, has also called for ministers to think about ways to roll out more discounted fares in northern England.

“It’s not right that there’s a Network Railcard that offers discounted off-peak travel for the South East of England only,” she said.

“The North has suffered the double blow of unreliable train services on Victorian infrastructure whilst paying full fares.

An anytime day return from Didcot Parkway to Swindon, about 25 miles, is £65.20. An anytime day return from Hebden Bridge to Manchester, about 25 miles, is £15.60. Neither qualify for Network Card discounts. Not all "full fares" are the same.

[GBM]

Hm. It is, but I'm a bit sceptical about claims like this:

An anytime day return from Didcot Parkway to Swindon, about 25 miles, is £65.20. An anytime day return from Hebden Bridge to Manchester, about 25 miles, is £15.60. Neither qualify for Network Card discounts. Not all "full fares" are the same.

Cue member grahame on Melksham fares.......

[grahame]

Cue member grahame on Melksham fares.......

Can't really answer today - offline at the moment in Tilshead ... (oops ... I seem to be here!)

[TaplowGreen]

Hm. It is, but I'm a bit sceptical about claims like this:

Zoe Billingham, the director of the IPPR North think tank, has also called for ministers to think about ways to roll out more discounted fares in northern England.

“It’s not right that there’s a Network Railcard that offers discounted off-peak travel for the South East of England only,” she said.

“The North has suffered the double blow of unreliable train services on Victorian infrastructure whilst paying full fares.

An anytime day return from Didcot Parkway to Swindon, about 25 miles, is £65.20. An anytime day return from Hebden Bridge to Manchester, about 25 miles, is £15.60. Neither qualify for Network Card discounts. Not all "full fares" are the same.

Is that an edge case or a common scenario?

[grahame]

Hm. It is, but I'm a bit sceptical about claims like this:

Zoe Billingham, the director of the IPPR North think tank, has also called for ministers to think about ways to roll out more discounted fares in northern England.

“It’s not right that there’s a Network Railcard that offers discounted off-peak travel for the South East of England only,” she said.

“The North has suffered the double blow of unreliable train services on Victorian infrastructure whilst paying full fares.

An anytime day return from Didcot Parkway to Swindon, about 25 miles, is £65.20. An anytime day return from Hebden Bridge to Manchester, about 25 miles, is £15.60. Neither qualify for Network Card discounts. Not all "full fares" are the same.

Is that an edge case or a common scenario?

I would ... suggest ... that Didcot to Swindon is something of an extreme case - perhaps not an extreme edge case, but certainly on the 95th or higher percentile.   Any time, any route (including HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel)) Tonbridge to London is £90.50, NOT HS1 is £40.70. Swindon to Salisbury is an interesting case - the most flexible ticket ("Not via London") costs £174.20 anytime return and that used to be the ticket you required on the 06:15 direct train from Swindon.   However, GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) saw the logic in changing the "via Bath Spa" fare into a "via Trowbridge" fare and at current rates that's £50.70 - still above "northern rates" but a huge improvement, and thank you to GWR for helping to bring in this change.

Hebden Bridge to Manchester is a pretty standard sort of rate, I suggest, away from the South East / Home Counties. Try £11.90 Forres to Inverness, or Plymouth to Totnes at £12.60 / anytime day returns.   Brighton to Bognor Regis is £22.20 ...

Where you find astonishing inequalities is in the differenetial between anytime and restricted time fares, and between tickets from where you start to where you end versus multiple tickets bought in sections via intermediate stations.  I would suggest that there's a tendency for the anytime fares ("peak fares") to be proportionatly fare higher than "off peak" on London routes. 

Basically, the whole system has grown into an illogical morass based on local and regional issues - both in keeping fares low in the first place ( for the very people, perhaps, who are now requesting a railcard for the North ) and in increasing fares for a premium service such as Didcot to Swindon.

[Bob_Blakey]

Since it seemingly won't be very long before there is a Railcard to cover every sector of society why not speed up and/or simplify the process by scrapping all of them and implement an across-the-board fare reduction?

Discuss (from a safe distance obviously). 

[grahame]

Since it seemingly won't be very long before there is a Railcard to cover every sector of society why not speed up and/or simplify the process by scrapping all of them and implement an across-the-board fare reduction?

Discuss (from a safe distance obviously). 

Close.  I would prefer a railcard to become a loyalty card.  The devil, though, would be in the detail.   At present, different railcards have differing terms and conditions.  Can you use them in the peak?  Or before 09:30? Is there a minimum fare payable?  Do you have to take a child with you? Can they be applied to paper tickets?

[Bob_Blakey]

Close.  I would prefer a railcard to become a loyalty card.....

Hmmm, I never considered that and agree it could work. Obviously LNER^» (London North Eastern Railway - about) already do this with their PERKS scheme, I don't know if any other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), apart from GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), offer something similar.

[Trowres]

...I would prefer a railcard to become a loyalty card...

What exactly is "loyalty" in railway terms:
   A regular commuter with no other sensible option?
   Someone who chooses rail instead of car for a four-times-a-year leisure journey?

Not advocating for any particular approach, but many business models seem to penalise loyalty, using a cheap "bait" rate and then switching to a higher rate later on. Why would that be a bad idea for rail and a loyalty scheme good?

[TaplowGreen]

...I would prefer a railcard to become a loyalty card...

What exactly is "loyalty" in railway terms:
   A regular commuter with no other sensible option?
   Someone who chooses rail instead of car for a four-times-a-year leisure journey?

Not advocating for any particular approach, but many business models seem to penalise loyalty, using a cheap "bait" rate and then switching to a higher rate later on. Why would that be a bad idea for rail and a loyalty scheme good?

I'm not sure "loyalty" is the right word, but certainly a card which offered discount to all along the same lines as the young, the old and the disabled currently benefit from would encourage more use - even if it was restricted to off peak travel.

[Noggin]

Personally, I'd be quite happy to pay my £60/month for the equivalent of a German D-Pass (unlimited local transport and non-Intercity trains).

Yes, the price makes it a complete bargain, but it's also a massive win not to have to muck around with bank cards, tickets etc. You just put your destination in the journey planner, walk onto the service and you are done.

On that theme, I find it astonishing that I can't just download a WECA^» (West of England Mayoral Combined Authority - about) app and subscribe to local transport. Again, how much more attractive would it be to just flash a barcode to get onto a bus or train, particularly for infrequent users and for parents to buy for their kids? 

[plymothian]

Easiest thing to do is make the Network Railcard valid across the whole network.  The network in Network Railcard has been redundant since 1997 anyway; it's most confusing to people aged 30-60 who are duped into buying one and then discover is not actually valid on the network.

[PhilWakely]

Easiest thing to do is make the Network Railcard valid across the whole network.  The network in Network Railcard has been redundant since 1997 anyway; it's most confusing to people aged 30-60 who are duped into buying one and then discover is not actually valid on the network.

I am surprised at the number of people that do not read the Ts&Cs for the Network Railcard and assume it covers the entire Network. I was in Scotland a couple of years ago and a couple in front of me in the queue at Fort William Ticket Office expected a discount on a Mallaig service with that railcard.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Hmm. 

I'm fairly (pun intended!) happy with my 'Old Gits' Senior Railcard, as I still travel by rail sometimes these days, in my retirement.  My wife doesn't have one, but she only travels on trains about three times a year, so it wouldn't make financial sense for her to also buy one.

The other cards we do have are senior citizen bus passes, which are excellent - we can travel in to Bristol free, without having to run a car, pay for 'Park & Ride' or any of that malarkey, for example.

CfN^▸ (Chris from Nailsea, an administrator on this forum).