Wrong train, wrong TM

[whole diary]

[Btline]

Apparently VT^▸ (Virgin Trains - former franchise (or, possibly, in a France context, Versement Transport - a payroll tax on employers to fund local transport) ) are cutting the cheapest Advance prices on B'ham to London to just ^5!

I wonder whether this is to draw people back from Chiltern (cheapest ticket ^4)?

But it is mad. Why can't we have turn up and go tickets that are cheaper. We can't always plan ahead, and some of these ^100 + fares are daylight robbery...

We also need Advance tickets on all Long distance routes (i.e. Cotswolds).

[devon_metro]

There is a fine line at what can be done. If Advance fares were made more expensive and walk on fares were slightly lower you wouldn't get hoards of leisure travellers filling up your off peak trains whilst peak trains would be more overcrowded. Cheap walk on fares only seem to work in small areas. Devon+Cornwall show that cheap fares are a success. Although of course, you can't lower fares when there isn't the capacity for these extra people, which is true for much of the network. The WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) with its ridiculous timetable means there is ample room off peak to get people onto the trains for pretty much anything. The problem I find with advance fares which really hacks me off though, is how your outbound ticket might be ^5 but the return will be ^20. I can't remember the last time I travelled using advance fares. They are simply too inflexible!

[Btline]

OBVIOUSLY PEAK fares should remain high, but even walk on off peak fares are bad. It is those that should be reduced.

[Mookiemoo]

Playing devils advocate........

Why should peak fairs remain high?

These are people who are contributing to the economy - off peak fairs are probably students/leisure/retired/unemployed - who didly squat in these hard times

Cut the service and subsidize the peak - make it easier for people to get to work

[Chris from Nailsea]

Erm ... excuse me, but the reason I use off peak fares on my way home from my jaunts to London is that I have blown half my department's travel budget, just getting up to London in the morning! 

Journey from BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI) but BTM is a commonly used alternative)) to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) in the early morning = ^75.00

Journey from PAD to BTM in the mid afternoon = ^13.50

... and, by the way, the train is crammed, both ways! 

[Btline]

Playing devils advocate........

Why should peak fairs remain high?

These are people who are contributing to the economy - off peak fairs are probably students/leisure/retired/unemployed - who didly squat in these hard times

Cut the service and subsidize the peak - make it easier for people to get to work

Yes, I can see your point, but fare drops at peak times would result in critical overcrowding, even at Finstock!

Cutting services off peak is not a good idea. Staff with nothing to do. Rolling stock lying around. Stations empty, but staffed or with CCTV^▸ (Closed Circuit Tele-Vision) and lights. Tracks maintained to the same level, but for less traffic. Would be a disaster.

The main reason for low off peak fares is to make commuter lines worth running. The mad rushes in the peaks may seem huge, but do NOT guarantee that a line makes profit, or even breaks even.

Beeching mentioned these issues when he reluctantly kept commuter lines open.

[Lee]

Quote from the Beeching Report :

In cases of the type under consideration it may be cheaper to subsidise the railways than to bear the other cost burdens which will arise if they are closed. If this happens, however, there should be no feeling that the railways are being propped up by such a subsidy because of a commercial failure.

[Tim]

There is a danger that dropping fares on peaktime services will lead to overcrowding but I don't think it is a simple equation.  The fare that I ought to use most often is the ^130+ Bath-London anytime (open) return (in actual fact I usally do a Swindon or Didcot rebooking to lower the cost).  I would argue that lowing the price of that ticket would not lead to overcrowding.

Firstly, I am travelling on business expenses for journeys which cannot be avoided.  If the fare was ^200 I would still travel (the extra cost would just have to be absorded by my company or our clients).  

Secondly. the trains I travel on have people travelling on advanced tickets (typically at about ^40 single), people on 7 day season tickets (about ^180 per week or ^32 per day if spread over 5 days - realively speaking this is n absolute bargain and not one I am sure can be justified - but that is another argument) and people on rebooked tickets.  I reckon that a small minority are actually on the ^130 open return.  In responding to press cirticism over its high fares I recall a FGW^▸ (First Great Western) spokenwoman once saying that the high open return prices quoted by the journalist didn't matter because very few people used them.  Even if that statement were true, and I suspect that it migth be, it misses the point.  The huge headline fares do significant damage to the railway.  They make them look greedy; they encourage bad press and most importantly they discourage customers, particularly people who have not used the train before (we all know people who drive everywhere and whouldn't even think about using a train - those are the kind of people who are an untapped market for the railway but the kind of people who belive that all train fares are at the ^100+ level)

the problem of course is partly due to the way tickets are regulated (savers are but open returns are not, which of course is stupid - if you are only going to retulate one ticket type then it ought to be the most expensive) and partly to the railway companies using teh on-train sales of high open returns as a way to punish ticketless travel where penalty fares or a "on train commision system - see my post above" would be less of a blunt instrument)

[Btline]

Yes, but more people might be drawn to the service if the fare is lower.

[Tim]

Yes, but more people might be drawn to the service if the fare is lower.

But if you want to price people off a service, doesn't it make more sense to raise the price of the bargin seasons or advance tickets rather than the extortionate open fares?