Night Riviera Sleeper train - between Paddington and Penzance

[whole diary]

[IndustryInsider]

Let’s hope the Night Riviera continues in some form in the future.  It is now up to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) and, in the future GBR^▸ (Great British Railways), to fund it and will be a very easy scapegoat should they not wish to (unique/Ageing stock/loss making).

[grahame]

Let’s hope the Night Riviera continues in some form in the future.  It is now up to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) and, in the future GBR^▸ (Great British Railways), to fund it and will be a very easy scapegoat should they not wish to (unique/Ageing stock/loss making).

There is likely to be some discussion in various places in the future, and it may be prudent to ensure those places are well informed ahead of time how important to the places served, loved, and supported the service is.  The issues you raised can be addressed but I will let others comment how rather than start hares running.

[grahame]

gwr-sleeper-service-set-to-be-impacted-for-eight-weeks-while-work-to-protect-vital-rail-link-to-south-west-continues-2

has anyone suggested
gwr-sleeper-to-be-run-via-tavistock-for-eight-weeks-while-work-to-protect-important-rail-link-to-south-west-continues-3 for next year?

[TaplowGreen]

Let’s hope the Night Riviera continues in some form in the future.  It is now up to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) and, in the future GBR^▸ (Great British Railways), to fund it and will be a very easy scapegoat should they not wish to (unique/Ageing stock/loss making).

Notwithstanding the point about the Scillonian (which I imagine is marginal), to make it (more) viable, especially outside of the holiday season, it needs to be marketed more as a business option (again, much harder now that we're in the World of hybrid working with much less business travel), so basically arrival times into cities like Plymouth at a realistic hour (0800?) to make a day's business possible and a better option than travelling the previous day and staying in a hotel  - not 0520 which really is no use to anyone.

Alternatively, go back to detaching a carriage at Plymouth if it has to be an ungodly hour

If that was achievable, even an old cynic like me might give it a go! 

II is right about it being an easy target - it ticks most of those boxes - whimsy and nostalgia won't sustain the subsidy forever, it needs to demonstrate its future worth and that, I'm afraid, probably means it being at least less reliant on massive subsidies to survive.

It's going to be "reduced" for eight weeks - I don't hear too many people protesting which perhaps tells a tale but I'm happy to be corrected if there are campaigns I'm not aware of?

[bobm]

Just a note about the Scillonian - it doesn't sail in the winter.

[broadgage]

Let’s hope the Night Riviera continues in some form in the future.  It is now up to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) and, in the future GBR^▸ (Great British Railways), to fund it and will be a very easy scapegoat should they not wish to (unique/Ageing stock/loss making).

Notwithstanding the point about the Scillonian (which I imagine is marginal), to make it (more) viable, especially outside of the holiday season, it needs to be marketed more as a business option (again, much harder now that we're in the World of hybrid working with much less business travel), so basically arrival times into cities like Plymouth at a realistic hour (0800?) to make a day's business possible and a better option than travelling the previous day and staying in a hotel  - not 0520 which really is no use to anyone.

Alternatively, go back to detaching a carriage at Plymouth if it has to be an ungodly hour

If that was achievable, even an old cynic like me might give it a go! 

II is right about it being an easy target - it ticks most of those boxes - whimsy and nostalgia won't sustain the subsidy forever, it needs to demonstrate its future worth and that, I'm afraid, probably means it being at least less reliant on massive subsidies to survive.

It's going to be "reduced" for eight weeks - I don't hear too many people protesting which perhaps tells a tale but I'm happy to be corrected if there are campaigns I'm not aware of?

You wont hear "too many people complaining" because only relatively small numbers use the sleeper. If compared to busy daytime trains with hundreds of passengers.
It is however still an important facility for those who do use it, and continued reliable provision should be a part of fulfilling stated  government aims of "leveling up" and of "improving regional connectivity" and of course encouraging "greener transport choices"

[grahame]

At the risk of getting myself deep in the brown stuff on "sleeper futures", I have to ask if it could run into Euston and share facilities and have the same stock as the Caledonian sleeper, and be run using the same class 73 locomotive fleet - with a view to moving the whole operation to class 88 as a future path.

I'm sure, like many other services, there's a seasonal element to the sleeper traffic, and also a cyclic element through the week and it would probably be fair to say it's at its quietest mid-week in winter (Saturday nights - probably the quietest of the whole week - don't run any more, right?

[paul7575]

AIUI^▸ ('as I understand it') the Cally only uses 73s in Scotland once the trains have split, the long haul from Euston to Scotland is done with 92s.  I don’t think 88s are actually powerful enough off the wires, but that’s open to correction.

Coincidentally it’s been reported today that First Group have asked for proposals for a new bimode loco class to replace 68s on TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express), with an option to replace 57s on the GW^» (Great Western - used as an abbreviation for the area / lines under the Great Western franchise, as opposed to FGW which includes "First", the company operating them too. For tickets - about) sleepers:

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2022/01/suppliers-sought-for-new-bi-mode-locomotives-for-transpennine-express-and-great-western-railway.html?fbclid=IwAR3t-v_gNvmqq1wPz20v2PicJgbPTiFPBWe7SzRhdf_nDXMghxkln6V80Z8

[JayMac]

The Night Riviera could certainly be pathed into Euston. Via Acton East Junction to the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) at West London Junction (Willesden).

Whether Wembley Depot has capacity to host and service the Night Rivera as well as the Caledonian Sleepers is another matter.

[IndustryInsider]

Coincidentally it’s been reported today that First Group have asked for proposals for a new bimode loco class to replace 68s on TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express), with an option to replace 57s on the GW^» (Great Western - used as an abbreviation for the area / lines under the Great Western franchise, as opposed to FGW which includes "First", the company operating them too. For tickets - about) sleepers:

Excellent news…and a positive statement that the sleeper is here to stay.

[TaplowGreen]

Let’s hope the Night Riviera continues in some form in the future.  It is now up to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) and, in the future GBR^▸ (Great British Railways), to fund it and will be a very easy scapegoat should they not wish to (unique/Ageing stock/loss making).

Notwithstanding the point about the Scillonian (which I imagine is marginal), to make it (more) viable, especially outside of the holiday season, it needs to be marketed more as a business option (again, much harder now that we're in the World of hybrid working with much less business travel), so basically arrival times into cities like Plymouth at a realistic hour (0800?) to make a day's business possible and a better option than travelling the previous day and staying in a hotel  - not 0520 which really is no use to anyone.

Alternatively, go back to detaching a carriage at Plymouth if it has to be an ungodly hour

If that was achievable, even an old cynic like me might give it a go! 

II is right about it being an easy target - it ticks most of those boxes - whimsy and nostalgia won't sustain the subsidy forever, it needs to demonstrate its future worth and that, I'm afraid, probably means it being at least less reliant on massive subsidies to survive.

It's going to be "reduced" for eight weeks - I don't hear too many people protesting which perhaps tells a tale but I'm happy to be corrected if there are campaigns I'm not aware of?

You wont hear "too many people complaining" because only relatively small numbers use the sleeper. If compared to busy daytime trains with hundreds of passengers.
It is however still an important facility for those who do use it, and continued reliable provision should be a part of fulfilling stated  government aims of "leveling up" and of "improving regional connectivity" and of course encouraging "greener transport choices"

That's sort of the point I'm making - if the aspiration is that the sleeper is to play a part (albeit a small one) in "levelling  up", for important strategic cities like Plymouth, then it has to work to the timings that make it a practical option for customers, not which suit the railway.

I think it could have a future, but clearly as you've pointed out with the numbers using it at the moment, it is ripe for cutting with a Government looking to save money.

I have no idea of the difference between 98s, 88s, 68s and 57s but anything more reliable is probably also essential for the future.

[IndustryInsider]

I have no idea of the difference between 98s, 88s, 68s and 57s but anything more reliable is probably also essential for the future.

Class 93s (or a version of) are most likely IMHO^▸ ('in my humble opinion').  88s not powerful enough in diesel, 68s are diesel only and 98s are most definitely not suitable, though I expect Broadgage would welcome them! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_98

Edit to fix link.

[GBM]

I have no idea of the difference between 98s, 88s, 68s and 57s but anything more reliable is probably also essential for the future.

Class 93s (or a version of) are most likely IMHO^▸ ('in my humble opinion').  88s not powerful enough in diesel, 68s are diesel only and 98s are most definitely not suitable, though I expect Broadgage would welcome them!  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_98

Link not operative!
Link here to Stadler class 93 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_93_(Stadler)

[grahame]

I have no idea of the difference between 98s, 88s, 68s and 57s but anything more reliable is probably also essential for the future.

Class 93s (or a version of) are most likely IMHO^▸ ('in my humble opinion').  88s not powerful enough in diesel, 68s are diesel only and 98s are most definitely not suitable, though I expect Broadgage would welcome them!  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_98

Link not operative!
Link here to Stadler class 93 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_93_(Stadler)

Link fixed.   

There are quite a few locomotives in class 98, and their utilisation is quite low.  There might be a problem as there's quite a range of sub-types and a need for some new infrastructure along the way to handle their fuelling, servicing and cleaning, but I suspect they would generate a significant market of leisure passengers based exactly on the variety within the class.  I do appreciate that some of them - such as 98007 / 8 / 9 wouldn't be possible.

[Godfrey Tables]

I hear across Europe a lot of previously axed sleeper services are being revived as there is an increasing market for them. People increasingly turning away from air travel for a multitude of reasons, environmental impact being one of them.
It would therefore seem against current trends if the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) was to close any of its sleeper services, although I might be comparing apples with oranges. I wonder if recent impact on domestic aviation would have affected demand for long distance rail