HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Government proposals, alternative routes, discussion

[whole diary]

[Witham Bobby]

I guess it was no great surprise that so much had been spent, presumably on consultants, agents, civil engineering designers/engineers/architects, and land purchase before even a spade had been turned in the ground.

The project was cursed from the start.  I have no doubt that this is because it was all set up by politicians with their huge-scale egos and no one to say "no", and no one with any kind of useful experience being asked about the practicalities of the vision.  Couple that with so many involved seeing the rape of the taxpayer as some kind of god-given right or opportunity to just take whatever they wanted.

And all to get from Birmingham to the outskirts of London quarter of an hour or so quicker.  If you didn't laugh, you'd cry

[ChrisB]

And all to get from Birmingham to the outskirts of London quarter of an hour or so quicker.  If you didn't laugh, you'd cry

How many times does it need repeating that the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) is full & no more paths exist. That was the original plan for HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services))" to provide additional paths for both passenger & freight. One might argue that their biggest fault was in naming the project Hi-Speed 2.

[grahame]

Reply no. 1937 on a thread that originates back in 2009 ...

And all to get from Birmingham to the outskirts of London quarter of an hour or so quicker.  If you didn't laugh, you'd cry

How many times does it need repeating that the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) is full & no more paths exist. That was the original plan for HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services))" to provide additional paths for both passenger & freight. One might argue that their biggest fault was in naming the project Hi-Speed 2.

The naming is certainly something that has given rise to a false narrative, but may I suggest that the implication from that naming is an even bigger fault - the heavy engineering and extra expense of a brand new line on an alignment fit for a speed that will save a few minutes.

Here are two images I have grabbed this morning - that on the left if the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)'s crowing about progress - none of which will actually be in use for, what, another decade, and on the right is a railway map showing North West London.



Now - it's too late to look at the parallel universe through retrospective glasses - but I find myself musing that had a decision been taken to restore / retain the old Great Central route north of Aylesbury, various other routes that are not at WCML capacity would have opened up. The old GC^» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) route crossed the West Coast main line at Rugby, and from the right hand side map here you'll see how close the various lines come to each other in the lead into London.

The parallel universe offered some really interesting prospects, such as express trains from the North West and Midlands (and beyond there from North Wales, the North East and Scotland) routing onto the Midland line and rather than turning right at Kentish Town carrying on along the chord across onto HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel).  With the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) joining Schengen ...
* Manchester - Stoke-on-Trent - Nuneaton - London Kentish Town - Ashford - Calais - Lille - Brussels - Koln - Frankfurt
* Leeds - Sheffield - Nottingham - Leicester - Rugby - London Kentish Town - Stratford International - Paris
* Holyhead - Bangor - Crewe - Rugby - London Kentish Town - Brussels - Hannover - Berlin - Warsaw
and they would be up and running already!  The engineering needed being only a fraction of that which the DfT boasts of being proudly completed on social media this morning.

[Witham Bobby]

And all to get from Birmingham to the outskirts of London quarter of an hour or so quicker.  If you didn't laugh, you'd cry

How many times does it need repeating that the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) is full & no more paths exist. That was the original plan for HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services))" to provide additional paths for both passenger & freight. One might argue that their biggest fault was in naming the project Hi-Speed 2.

I am completely confident that additional capacity could have been built without a project that will take far too long to be completed and has dug very deeply into taxpayers pockets (£100bn is a huge amount of wonga)  and would have provided a lot more "connectivity" than a shuttle route between the capital and our second city

I don't argue that the capacity is needed.  But the project is a farce, and, beyond the capacity that it might produce, has very little benefit (unless you're a consultant or civil engineering contractor.  In which case you're right royally coining it)

[Electric train]

I don't argue that the capacity is needed.  But the project is a farce, and, beyond the capacity that it might produce, has very little benefit (unless you're a consultant or civil engineering contractor.  In which case you're right royally coining it)

The farce was the Trumpian gold plating by previous Prime Ministers especially when then-Prime Minister Boris Johnson gave HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) the official green light in February 2020, he highlighted its "extraordinarily fast journey times". While speaking in the House of Commons, Johnson stated that the new high-speed trains would "travel at speeds up to 225 miles per hour".  Also the succession of start building in without all the consents and outline decisions being done.

The option to upgrade the existing WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) was never and option, it went through that in the early 2000's and by 2020 all the capacity had been used.

The biggest blunder is cancelling phase 2 ie North of Birmingham to Manchester 

[TaplowGreen]

I don't argue that the capacity is needed.  But the project is a farce, and, beyond the capacity that it might produce, has very little benefit (unless you're a consultant or civil engineering contractor.  In which case you're right royally coining it)

The biggest blunder is cancelling phase 2 ie North of Birmingham to Manchester 

As we're over £100 billion to get from Acton to Solihull, how much would the bill have been by now had phase 2 been included?

[TaplowGreen]

 

[Electric train]

I don't argue that the capacity is needed.  But the project is a farce, and, beyond the capacity that it might produce, has very little benefit (unless you're a consultant or civil engineering contractor.  In which case you're right royally coining it)

The biggest blunder is cancelling phase 2 ie North of Birmingham to Manchester 

As we're over £100 billion to get from Acton to Solihull, how much would the bill have been by now had phase 2 been included?

If and yes its a big "if" HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) had been planned, designed and constructed by Engineering project teams and not been interfered constantly by Politicians and Civil Servants to quote Oscar Wild "who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing" instead they should have employed another Mr Wild from the beginning

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

Plaid Cymru demands talks with UK^▸ (United Kingdom) government to address 'unfair' HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) rail funding

Plaid Cymru's new transport minister has asked for talks with the UK government to demand better rail funding for Wales.

Mark Hooper said successive UK governments had failed to address a "long-standing symbol of unfair rail funding" over High Speed 2, which is classed as an England and Wales project. Hooper said £445m announced for new stations last year "falls far short" and called for a "more ambitious" level of funding.

A Labour source said the UK government plans to "right the wrongs of historic underinvestment".

Plaid Cymru had promised at the May election to push for greater funding and powers from Westminster.

While a small number of lines in the south Wales valleys are maintained by the Welsh government, most rail infrastructure is the responsibility of the UK government.

Previous Welsh governments have long complained that Wales' rail network has suffered from under investment.

The large sums of money spent on HS2 ramped up those grievances. It was recently announced that the scheme could cost up to £102.7bn and may not open until 2039.

England-only schemes generate a consequential sum of money for Welsh budgets, but because HS2 was classed as an England and Wales project that has not happened, unlike Scotland and Northern Ireland.

The Westminster UK government has argued it is addressing underinvestment in rail, announcing £445m for new rail stations and other projects a year ago.

Before the election Sir Keir Starmer committed to a plan of work worth £14bn over 15 years, although the vast bulk of the money to build the proposed 43 stations has not been identified.

Only the £445m has been formally committed, with cash confirmed for seven stations.

In a letter to Alexander, Hooper wrote: "For Wales, HS2 is also a long-standing symbol of unfair rail funding that successive UK governments have failed to address."

While he welcomed the endorsement of the £14bn Transport for Wales rail plan, the deputy transport minister said the funding announced last year "falls far short of addressing the historic under-investment. I am keen that our officials work together on a far more ambitious pipeline of investment ahead of the next spending review," he added. The next spending review is expected in 2027.

Hooper said the Welsh government "wants to negotiate fairer rail funding for Wales", along with a pathway to full devolution.

Plaid wants control over Wales' railways to be fully in the hands of the Welsh government.

A Labour source said: "After avoiding the topic during the Senedd election, it is a positive step forward that Plaid have finally thrown their support behind the up to £14bn plan for rail agreed by the UK Labour government and the previous Welsh Labour government."

"Worth far more than what Welsh government would have received had HS2, or any other rail project been devolved, this investment will bring new stations and better services to people across Wales and right the wrongs of historic underinvestment by successive Tory governments in Westminster."

[infoman]

So what improvements would Plaid Cymru,Transport for Wales want?

[Electric train]

So what improvements would Plaid Cymru,Transport for Wales want?

It's in their manifesto  https://www.partyof.wales/y_rheilffyrdd#:~:text=Better%20and%20more%20frequent%20everyday,from%20Cardiff%20to%20the%20Heads

[Mark A]

Succinct case for building HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) phase 2 now: includes the perspective that the workforce for certain sorts of work on HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) and also on Hinckley Point are coming to the end of that employment and their very real skills will not simply transfer to the remainder of the tasks on HS2 as that's of a different nature.

Mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emxyFNvaVFw