Fare's not so Fair!!

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Hmm. Since you appear to be trying to set fares so that the operator doesn't lose revenue, you need to factor in the number of tickets sold for each of those journeys. You can't average averages!

RTFF ("Read the Footnote"):

"I haven't weighted the figures based on the proportion of passengers from each station." it sed 

I would agree that the shorter journeys are probably higher flows, so that the actual figures could be factored down, or at least a couple of January rises could be passed over, as such a system came in.

[ChrisB]

Bristol to London 120 miles 84.50 fare 70.4 pence per mile
Bath to London 116 miles 79.50 fare 68.5 pence per mile
Chippenham to London 100 miles 69.50 fare 69.5 pence per mile
Swindon to London 82 miles 54.50 fare 66.5 pence per mile
Didcot to London 73 miles 26.00 fare 35.6 pence per mile
Reading to London 42 miles 19.50 fare 46.4 pence per mile

Thanks for those figures - as long as you calculated the mileage all the same way, I don't think it matters, as we're just looking at the 'injustices' of fares.

Does look as though NSE^▸ (Network South East) Area fares do need to rise to match those outside still further. I stand corrected. Look forward to the squeels that will emanate from Reading one day...

[TerminalJunkie]

"I haven't weighted the figures based on the proportion of passengers from each station." it sed 

I know, because that's what you did. But in order to come even close to the right answer, you have to!

I would agree that the shorter journeys are probably higher flows

I suspect that's not actually true, and the order is likely to be Reading, Bristol, Swindon, Bath, Chippenham, then Didcot. If you have to guesstimate the weighting, try multiplying the population of each place and divide by the square of the distance between them.

[ChrisB]

More frim Didcot than Chippenham & Bath. Count the number of trains in each peak...should give you some clue

[ellendune]

So on the current Bristol to London service (all based on single peak tickets):

Bristol to London 120 miles 84.50 fare 70.4 pence per mile
Bath to London 116 miles 79.50 fare 68.5 pence per mile
Chippenham to London 100 miles 69.50 fare 69.5 pence per mile
Swindon to London 82 miles 54.50 fare 66.5 pence per mile
Didcot to London 73 miles 26.00 fare 35.6 pence per mile
Reading to London 42 miles 19.50 fare 46.4 pence per mile

So the most congested section of line that limits capacity (Reading Station and the line from Reading to Paddington) has the lowest fare per mile.  Market economics would suggest that this should have the highest fare per mile.

Perhaps ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road, formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about)/DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) should ask itself whether there is some distortion of the market here.

If there was market pricing then the Reading to Paddington fares would have the highest fare per mile. 

[ChrisB]

Most passengers = smaller fare/mile, surely? Not the othercwsy round?

[ellendune]

Most passengers = smaller fare/mile, surely? Not the othercwsy round?

Not is you take a market economics approach.

1. My use of the line for longer distance passengers is limited by the short distance ones so I need the short distance passengers to pay more because I cannot collect more afres for the parts of the line where I have spare seats.

2. Excessive demand in the overcrowded section could be reduced by higher fares which would maximise income as demand suggest that some passengers are likely to be being put off by overcrowding.   

Or to look at it another way investment to increase capacity should be paid for equally by all passengers using overcrowded section. 

[XPT]

And for every anomaly that can be regarded as benefiting the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) there will be another that benefits the passenger. One thing the Fares and Pricing Managers must hate is split ticketing. A great cost saving benefit for the passenger (enshrined in the Conditions of Carriage) but a headache for TOCs when they are trying to accurately forecast revenue and demand. A popular 'split' point like Didcot Parkway must have seriously skewed statistics, for example.

If the fares were "fairer" we wouldn't have to do split tickets to get cheaper more reasonable fares.

The walk-on fare for a Bristol-Birmingham return is ^45.70, which is absolutely ludicrous.  If I wish to travel to Birmingham(or onwards) at short notice I usually go via Worcester and the fare for splitting there is about ^18.40 return which is very good value.  But if I'm sensitive for time then I go via the direct route and split at Cheltenham and the fare is ^28.30 which is reasonable.  But ^45.70, no way siree am I paying that sort of money for a journey of about 85 miles in each direction.  Is it any wonder that I decide to split tickets to get my tickets at a more reasonable fare. 

Sometimes when I give my tickets into the conductor I hand both(or more) of my split tickets to the conductor.  Some of them give me a bit of a frown. Whilst some of them say "That's the way to do it".

[ChrisB]

I only ever pass over the ticket dfor whichever part of the journey I'm on at the time.

[Tim]

I only ever pass over the ticket dfor whichever part of the journey I'm on at the time.

The NCoC require you to, when asked, show your tciket "for your Journey".  If your journey is defined as your complete journey (and there are some reasons for suggesting that it should be) the law arguably requires you to show both tickets.

I would err on the side of caution and show both tickets (when I do this the staff have never complained and always stamp both).  Att he very least it stops you being accused to trying to prevent tickets from being stamped so that they can be used again.
 

[JayMac]

Conversely, I only hand over the ticket for the part of the journey I am currently on.

I often split tickets and make a break of journey. For example I recently went to London splitting my tickets at Didcot and spending 5 hours in the Railway Centre there. If I'd handed over both tickets and both got stamped then I could've faced problems using the second ticket later in the day - a TM^▸ (Train Manager, or Ticket Machine, or Temple Meads (Bristol), depending on context) could see the Zifa stamp and conclude that I was making a second journey on that ticket.

[rogerpatenall]

These anomalies exist with most transport. When BA^» (British Airways - about) flew from London, via Nairobi, to Malawi (Lilongwe) fares were usually considerable higher to get off at Nairobi. (But if you stayed off at Nairobi with a Lilongwe ticket, the return would be cancelled). Also, Condor fares to the channel islands can be higher than if you stay on the cat and go to St Malo.

[bobm]

I assume the splitting of tickets causes havoc with the statistics.  For example a Swindon to London Paddington journey split at Didcot Parkway would show as a passenger for both Swindon and Didcot's totals.

[autotank]

The question is does Didcot have a better than deserved train service because of people splitting? Should more trains run Reading - Swindon?

[ChrisB]

Certainly not in thevpeaks! Much needed! I suspect very few are splitting