| Re: Ticketless rail travel to be trialled, by using Apps instead Posted by stuving at 13:46, 30th September 2025 |     |
I’d be interested to know how or even if, they’re using something to detect location spoofing technology on the users devices. On Android it’s not very hard to do that, although personally I never have location services switched on.
If you ask anyone on the railway side about that, they will say it's a matter for FAIRTIQ. And it you ask FAIRTIQ, they will say ... have said this on Fighting ticket fraud. Obviously it doesn't have any real technical details - you wouldn't expect it to, would you? It does suggest significant effort still needs to go into combatting fraud, both in the system and by RPIs doing inspections in the field.
| Re: Ticketless rail travel to be trialled, by using Apps instead Posted by 1st fan at 12:50, 30th September 2025 | |
I’d be interested to know how or even if, they’re using something to detect location spoofing technology on the users devices. On Android it’s not very hard to do that, although personally I never have location services switched on.
| Re: Ticketless rail travel to be trialled, by using Apps instead Posted by stuving at 17:06, 29th September 2025 | |
The contract for what is obviously these trails was only signed (and started) 31/7/25 - and yes, with FAIRTIQ AG. The ITT notice was published 27/2/25, and explains how it works (or perhaps how RDG/ATOC though it would work). Even that seems a bit late for a genuine start of the process.
The DfT press release (6/6/25) lists four trials, with their dates:
The trials being operated by East Midlands Railway (EMR) and Northern Trains will run along these routes:
Leicester to Derby to Nottingham
Harrogate to Leeds
Sheffield to Doncaster
Sheffield to Barnsley
Unlike the previous rollout of pay-as-you-go, which uses contactless payment at barriers, these trials will use GPS-based technology to track people’s location throughout their train journey.
Up to 1,000 passengers will be able to take part in each route of the trials, meaning 4,000 passengers in total. The first trial to get underway will be on EMR between Leicester, Derby and Nottingham, kicking off at the beginning of September. The other routes, operated by Northern, will begin between September and November, with each running for 9 months from the start date.
Anyone interested in taking part should check EMR and Northern Trains’ websites, where a recruitment campaign has been launched.
Leicester to Derby to Nottingham
Harrogate to Leeds
Sheffield to Doncaster
Sheffield to Barnsley
Unlike the previous rollout of pay-as-you-go, which uses contactless payment at barriers, these trials will use GPS-based technology to track people’s location throughout their train journey.
Up to 1,000 passengers will be able to take part in each route of the trials, meaning 4,000 passengers in total. The first trial to get underway will be on EMR between Leicester, Derby and Nottingham, kicking off at the beginning of September. The other routes, operated by Northern, will begin between September and November, with each running for 9 months from the start date.
Anyone interested in taking part should check EMR and Northern Trains’ websites, where a recruitment campaign has been launched.
if you follow the link to EMR's sign-up page, it has more information and some FAQs if you are interested. Northern's doesn't.
| Re: Ticketless rail travel to be trialled, by using Apps instead Posted by ChrisB at 16:27, 29th September 2025 | |
Only if you tap in/out
| Re: Ticketless rail travel to be trialled, by using Apps instead Posted by froome at 15:57, 29th September 2025 | |
From The Telegraph
Train passengers will be tracked by GPS as part of a trial that could cut down on fare dodging.
New digital ticketing technology is being rolled out on East Midlands Railway (EMR) that tracks when passengers enter and leave train stations and automatically works out their fares.
It works in a similar way to London’s Oyster Card system, where travellers tap in and tap out and trust computer systems to calculate how much they have to pay for their journeys.
Government officials have promised that the new GPS technology will give “the best-value fare on the day”, while a spokesman for Trainline – whose technology is powering the trial – added that “daily and weekly caps” would be available so commuters would not overpay for their travel.
GPS tracking of rail passengers could close a loophole exploited by fare-dodgers known as “doughnutting”, where dishonest passengers buy a ticket for the start and end of their journey to get through automatic barriers – leaving the middle empty, or unpaid.
“[This scheme] deters abuses like so-called ‘doughnutting’ and helps protect industry revenue while making rail travel simpler for everyone,” said the Trainline spokesman.............
New digital ticketing technology is being rolled out on East Midlands Railway (EMR) that tracks when passengers enter and leave train stations and automatically works out their fares.
It works in a similar way to London’s Oyster Card system, where travellers tap in and tap out and trust computer systems to calculate how much they have to pay for their journeys.
Government officials have promised that the new GPS technology will give “the best-value fare on the day”, while a spokesman for Trainline – whose technology is powering the trial – added that “daily and weekly caps” would be available so commuters would not overpay for their travel.
GPS tracking of rail passengers could close a loophole exploited by fare-dodgers known as “doughnutting”, where dishonest passengers buy a ticket for the start and end of their journey to get through automatic barriers – leaving the middle empty, or unpaid.
“[This scheme] deters abuses like so-called ‘doughnutting’ and helps protect industry revenue while making rail travel simpler for everyone,” said the Trainline spokesman.............
What happens to passengers who have a paper rover ticket but also have a phone that can be tracked? They have already paid for their journey, but the app won't know that and will charge them again.
| Re: Ticketless rail travel to be trialled, by using Apps instead Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 15:13, 29th September 2025 | |
Thanks again, stuving: I thought we had discussed this concept somewhere on the forum previously. I have now merged both topics here, in the interests of continuity and clarity. CfN.
| Re: Ticketless rail travel to be trialled, by using Apps instead Posted by stuving at 14:11, 29th September 2025 | |
There was actually a thread on the earlier trial on EMR - it was this one, but it's easy to miss. Its title "Train passengers to be tracked to stop ticket fraud" was based on some very misleading reporting of the system being trialled.
| Re: Ticketless rail travel to be trialled, by using Apps instead Posted by ray951 at 12:13, 29th September 2025 | |
That sounds like the app that was discussed in this podcast https://www.freewheeling.info/the-freewheeling-podcast/gian-mattia-schucan from a company called https://fairtiq.com/en/
| Re: Ticketless rail travel to be trialled, by using Apps instead Posted by TaplowGreen at 12:13, 29th September 2025 | |
Another step towards ticket office closures?
| Re: Ticketless rail travel to be trialled, by using Apps instead Posted by Chris from Nailsea at 12:02, 29th September 2025 | |
From the BBC:
Rail passengers in Yorkshire have been invited to take part in a trial which will remove the need for them to buy tickets.
People travelling on Northern services between Leeds and Harrogate will be able to download an app from Monday which will track their journey and charge them the lowest possible fare at the end of the day.
For ticket inspections and to go through ticket barriers, a unique bar code will appear.
The Department for Transport said it was "bringing ticketing into the 21st century".
Rail minister Lord Peter Hendy said: "These trials are modernising fares and ticketing, making it simpler and easier for people to choose rail. As part of our Plan for Change, we're delivering straightforward, stress-free train travel across the north, supporting passengers and boosting economic growth, jobs and homes."
The trial will also be rolled out on Northern trains between Sheffield and Doncaster on 27 October and the operator's Sheffield to Barnsley services on 24 November.
The government said a pilot of the scheme in the East Midlands this month had been successful.
Alex Hornby, customer and commercial manager at Northern said: "We're proud to be at the forefront of simplifying rail travel for our customers in the North. These trials mark a significant step forward in making train journeys simpler, smarter and more flexible whether for work, leisure or everyday journeys."
Passengers, who will be given £15 worth of free travel for taking part, can sign up to the trial here.
People travelling on Northern services between Leeds and Harrogate will be able to download an app from Monday which will track their journey and charge them the lowest possible fare at the end of the day.
For ticket inspections and to go through ticket barriers, a unique bar code will appear.
The Department for Transport said it was "bringing ticketing into the 21st century".
Rail minister Lord Peter Hendy said: "These trials are modernising fares and ticketing, making it simpler and easier for people to choose rail. As part of our Plan for Change, we're delivering straightforward, stress-free train travel across the north, supporting passengers and boosting economic growth, jobs and homes."
The trial will also be rolled out on Northern trains between Sheffield and Doncaster on 27 October and the operator's Sheffield to Barnsley services on 24 November.
The government said a pilot of the scheme in the East Midlands this month had been successful.
Alex Hornby, customer and commercial manager at Northern said: "We're proud to be at the forefront of simplifying rail travel for our customers in the North. These trials mark a significant step forward in making train journeys simpler, smarter and more flexible whether for work, leisure or everyday journeys."
Passengers, who will be given £15 worth of free travel for taking part, can sign up to the trial here.
| Re: Ticketless rail travel to be trialled, by using Apps instead Posted by PhilWakely at 18:11, 1st September 2025 | |
.... The writer (Oliver Gill) clearly regarded this as extending the benefits of London-style tap-in tap-out to the Midlands and North, but with improvements - mainly calculating your best fare for your journey. ....
Best fare for the journey? Walk up Standard Single between A and B?
| Re: Ticketless rail travel to be trialled, by using Apps instead Posted by stuving at 11:22, 1st September 2025 | |
The same news was in yesterday's Sunday Times, but as a very different news story. The writer (Oliver Gill) clearly regarded this as extending the benefits of London-style tap-in tap-out to the Midlands and North, but with improvements - mainly calculating your best fare for your journey. He uses phrases such as "set to steal a march on counterparts down south" and "offered the chance to participate in the trial".
So the literal answer to "who voted for this" is the 4,000 volunteers for the trial. And of course a lot of apps on everyone's phones already have access to this kind of information. And the ST article adds that "the technology" is already successfully in use in Switzerland and Denmark.
| Re: Ticketless rail travel to be trialled, by using Apps instead Posted by grahame at 09:44, 1st September 2025 | |
Could this mean ticket gates might be installed at Chesterfield and Sheffield?
Sheffield, as I understand it, is a different issue with right of way across the station and so is not linked directly. I cannot but imagine that there must very good reasons at Chesterfield too.
The whole gateline / on train ticket checking in the UK is a mess.
Was changing trains in York (an open station) in early August, and needed to visit gents. However, the entrance was off a platform blocked by a ticket check being conducted off a Northern arrival from - educated guess - Harrogate direction and no say way to get to the loo. The revenue control bloke I asked if I could get to the loo seemed to have difficulty understanding my request as he and his colleagues were dealing with a cattle-like crush / flow off the train and taking aside a number of people who they wanted further discussions with. I eventually managed to explain what I wanted to do and he let me through - though with some concern that I might have to re-explain again, perhaps to a similar colleague of his, as I came out again. The "joke" of the who thing was that there turned out to be a second entrance / exit from the gents, and using that onto the other side of the island platform I did not have to through the blockade check; men familiar with York Station would have been able to avoid the ticket check should they have had reason to want to do so.
| Re: Ticketless rail travel to be trialled, by using Apps instead Posted by Witham Bobby at 09:28, 1st September 2025 | |
From The Telegraph
Train passengers will be tracked by GPS as part of a trial that could cut down on fare dodging.
New digital ticketing technology is being rolled out on East Midlands Railway (EMR) that tracks when passengers enter and leave train stations and automatically works out their fares.
It works in a similar way to London’s Oyster Card system, where travellers tap in and tap out and trust computer systems to calculate how much they have to pay for their journeys.
Government officials have promised that the new GPS technology will give “the best-value fare on the day”, while a spokesman for Trainline – whose technology is powering the trial – added that “daily and weekly caps” would be available so commuters would not overpay for their travel.
GPS tracking of rail passengers could close a loophole exploited by fare-dodgers known as “doughnutting”, where dishonest passengers buy a ticket for the start and end of their journey to get through automatic barriers – leaving the middle empty, or unpaid.
“[This scheme] deters abuses like so-called ‘doughnutting’ and helps protect industry revenue while making rail travel simpler for everyone,” said the Trainline spokesman.............
New digital ticketing technology is being rolled out on East Midlands Railway (EMR) that tracks when passengers enter and leave train stations and automatically works out their fares.
It works in a similar way to London’s Oyster Card system, where travellers tap in and tap out and trust computer systems to calculate how much they have to pay for their journeys.
Government officials have promised that the new GPS technology will give “the best-value fare on the day”, while a spokesman for Trainline – whose technology is powering the trial – added that “daily and weekly caps” would be available so commuters would not overpay for their travel.
GPS tracking of rail passengers could close a loophole exploited by fare-dodgers known as “doughnutting”, where dishonest passengers buy a ticket for the start and end of their journey to get through automatic barriers – leaving the middle empty, or unpaid.
“[This scheme] deters abuses like so-called ‘doughnutting’ and helps protect industry revenue while making rail travel simpler for everyone,” said the Trainline spokesman.............
What is being tracked? Phones? Faces?
Who voted for this level of surveillance being permitted? I sure didn't. I don't recall any of the parties putting permission for this level of surveillance in their election broadcasts
I'm very much in favour of ensuring everyone pays the right fare. But I think this is too much. We are sleepwalking into 1984 (or have already). The honest railway users will be tracked, and those who want to evade payment will simply find a way around it. One day, someone will realise that rules and regulations affect only those who are already trrustworthy people
| Re: Ticketless rail travel to be trialled, by using Apps instead Posted by infoman at 05:52, 1st September 2025 | |
Could this mean ticket gates might be installed at Chesterfield and Sheffield?
| Ticketless rail travel to be trialled, by using Apps instead Posted by Surrey 455 at 19:47, 31st August 2025 | |
From The Telegraph
Train passengers will be tracked by GPS as part of a trial that could cut down on fare dodging.
New digital ticketing technology is being rolled out on East Midlands Railway (EMR) that tracks when passengers enter and leave train stations and automatically works out their fares.
It works in a similar way to London’s Oyster Card system, where travellers tap in and tap out and trust computer systems to calculate how much they have to pay for their journeys.
Government officials have promised that the new GPS technology will give “the best-value fare on the day”, while a spokesman for Trainline – whose technology is powering the trial – added that “daily and weekly caps” would be available so commuters would not overpay for their travel.
GPS tracking of rail passengers could close a loophole exploited by fare-dodgers known as “doughnutting”, where dishonest passengers buy a ticket for the start and end of their journey to get through automatic barriers – leaving the middle empty, or unpaid.
“[This scheme] deters abuses like so-called ‘doughnutting’ and helps protect industry revenue while making rail travel simpler for everyone,” said the Trainline spokesman.............
New digital ticketing technology is being rolled out on East Midlands Railway (EMR) that tracks when passengers enter and leave train stations and automatically works out their fares.
It works in a similar way to London’s Oyster Card system, where travellers tap in and tap out and trust computer systems to calculate how much they have to pay for their journeys.
Government officials have promised that the new GPS technology will give “the best-value fare on the day”, while a spokesman for Trainline – whose technology is powering the trial – added that “daily and weekly caps” would be available so commuters would not overpay for their travel.
GPS tracking of rail passengers could close a loophole exploited by fare-dodgers known as “doughnutting”, where dishonest passengers buy a ticket for the start and end of their journey to get through automatic barriers – leaving the middle empty, or unpaid.
“[This scheme] deters abuses like so-called ‘doughnutting’ and helps protect industry revenue while making rail travel simpler for everyone,” said the Trainline spokesman.............
