Cardiff - Taunton / Cardiff - Portsmouth and their implications for Brighton services

[whole diary]

[paul7575]

Just saw this tender mentioned elsewhere, referring to additional stock for use on Cardiff - Taunton services.  Two sets with at least 275 seats capacity, LHCS^▸ (Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock) is an option (probably by default given the lack of DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) stock off-lease):

Date Published:    17 April 2013
Deadline Date:    07 May 2013
Document Type:    Invitation to Tender Notice - Negotiated procedure
Abstract
Provision of loco hauled or alternative passenger rolling stock services operated by First Great Western Ltd. First Great Western requires additional rolling stock solutions for additional passenger capacity on the Cardiff - Taunton Route. Two trains will run every week, Monday through Friday. Each Train Set will have a minimum capacity of 275 seats. It will be the supplier's responsibility to provide maintenance and servicing of these trains. The operating company will provide staff to cover the role of Guard and to manage Revenue Protection. The supplier may be required to provide the Driver. Loco Hauled and other solutions are welcomed.

The limited info available doesn't say when it is required though...

Paul

[trainbuff]

I remember a few years back some loco hauled top/tailed services Cardiff to Paignton. Judging by the date of 7th May for tender process ending would it may be for after the Summer as 12 days does not really give enough time I would guess. But it is just that. A guess. Other info would be welcomed if anyone has it

[devon_metro]

Autumn apparently.

[anthony215]

I have just read the article about this in the latest issue of Modern Railways.

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are supposed to be looking at hiring in trains to allow for the class 165's to go away for refurbishment work. Chiltern might be able to loan FGW a 165 to cover on certain routes once the Oxford - Bicester Town line is closed for re-building.

Otherwise perhaps 150921 and 150927  could perhaps go to Reading to work alongside 150001 and 150002 to allow some of the class 165's to go off for refurbishment.

I wonder if perhaps we could see DRS^▸ (Direct Rail Services Ltd) used this time since I am not sure if DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) have any spare class 67's available with them being used by ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) and Chiltern as well as thunderbird duties

[anthony215]

There seems to be some suggestions on other forums that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) may be looking at copying East Midlands Trains and reforming the class 158's back into 2 carriage units to allow the Cardiff - Portsmouth Hbr trains to be formed of 4 carriages.

FGW would have 20 2-car 158s if they split them back down, plus 3-car 158798. I believe the Portsmouth-Cardiff route needs 8 diagrams, so 16 units for 4-car operation.

Of course this will mean a shortfall of units elsewhere so perhaps this could be where the possible loco hauled sets come into play.

[phile]

On current timetable would require 9 sets for Pompey as one late Cardiff to Pompey forms a Brighton service off Fratton in the morning.

[anthony215]

On current timetable would require 9 sets for Pompey as one late Cardiff to Pompey forms a Brighton service off Fratton in the morning.

I will confess I forgot about that morning diagram from Fratton/Portsmouth to Brighton.

If FGW^▸ (First Great Western) dropped that Brighton service and left it to Southern that would free up one unit for use elsewhere.

[JayMac]

If FGW^▸ (First Great Western) dropped that Brighton service and left it to Southern that would free up one unit for use elsewhere.

No can do without the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)'s say so. The Brighton services are part of the Service Level Commitment within the franchise specification. The first service to Brighton has to originate from Havant or before.

[Southern Stag]

If they didn't want to put a 4-car 158 out on it though there would probably be ways to diagram it differently.

[phile]

You could take 2 cars off the last Cardiff to Portsmouth at night and not be missed.  However, the 09 00 Brighton requires more than 2 Coaches so would still have to be got round.   Could not be diagrammed to 798 as it couldn't cycle around with anything else and 153s banned from route.

[grahame]

If FGW^▸ (First Great Western) dropped that Brighton service and left it to Southern that would free up one unit for use elsewhere.

No can do without the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)'s say so. The Brighton services are part of the Service Level Commitment within the franchise specification. The first service to Brighton has to originate from Havant or before.

Indeed ... how far does the service have to go?   I'm not sure if it's still the case, but I understand there are / were some refreshed third rail units (class 508?) parked up at Eastleigh and available for hire.   One muses about the idea of using electric trains on an electrified line - to the layman such as myself it seems a bit obvious to do so.

Now there's the age old question that would be raised about using a special type of train for a single specific service and all the spares and maintenance issues that follow with it, and I can't really see First wanting to run 2 x third rail units in their fleet - one running and one spare / repair.   However, do what was done to the local services that call at Dean and Dunbridge and transfer the service to South West Trains, and run them from their Southampton Depot and you've mitigated the problem somewhat.  And you can also get start to remove the "single service" issue by using another unit or two for local services in the Southampton / New Forest area.   There's a weekday diagram for a 158 diesel to Lymington Pier which is essentially all electric.  And I think there may be another such diagram.   And ... before you know it, you're looking at a viable fleet of available trains, releasing 5, 7 or more carriages of 15x class diesel stock.

Losses from these changes?   An early morning Portsmouth - Havant which (if I read the previous post correctly) isn't a franchise requirement.   Not sure how busy that service is?   And the through-ness of Brighton to Malvern.  Alas, that service so often seems to appear on our map at the top of these pages as starting or ending short or ... as as the other day "this service will be terminated at and restarted from Westbury".  Good in terms of serving everywhere, but a bit of an issue for through passengers as the retorted service left before the original arrived, and Westbury doesn't yet have time tradel facilities 

[trainer]

I have used the through Brighton service only twice to/from Bristol: once for leisure and once on business, both in the days when it went to Cardiff.  The problem with a single or perhaps twice daily service is that unless you happen to need to travel when the train goes, the usefulness of it is very limited. (Perhaps we could call it the Melksham Syndrome!)  It becomes a pleasant surprise if you don't have to change.  I had to change on the south coast when I went down on business and waited to catch the through train on the way back.  There were people boarding who were surprised that I was going to Bristol as they assumed they would have to go through London. 

In this case the resources tied up in a very sparse service (Malvern - Brighton) seem to outweigh the benefits of releasing trains for the thriving Cardiff-Portsmouth and Cardiff - Taunton.  If it could be shown that the Brighton service is actually needed for social or other legitimate non-economic reasons (can't think what they could be) then it might fair to insist on its continuation while busier services have standing pax.

How unlike our near neighbours in France with units parked up most of the day just waiting for that one journey.

(PS I am aware that the thread has wandered quite quickly from the title - maybe a change needed?)

[Southern Stag]

I don't think the Brighton service should be withdrawn simply because it is well used with through passengers. If you wanted to concentrate 158s on the Portsmouth-Cardiff route you could run it as a 150+158. The unit isn't really tied up all day just to run one service anyway. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would have to provide a replacement from Westbury-Great Malvern at least anyway.

[grahame]

The unit isn't really tied up all day just to run one service anyway. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would have to provide a replacement from Westbury-Great Malvern at least anyway.

It's south of Westbury for a surprisingly long time - until 11:41 in the morning for the morning peak Brighton service, and then from 13:27 until 19:40 for the evening peak Brighton service.  The evening peak service, though, isn't a 3 car 158 is it?

I seem to recall the 158 from the morning Brighton going up to Malvern, down to Weymouth and then back to Bristol in the evening.  Is that still what it does?

[Southern Stag]

Yes it is. The evening service is also a three-car 158 now, it forms a morning peak service into Bristol, then up to Great Malvern and back to Brighton.