FlyBe - gone into administration

[whole diary]

[LiskeardRich]

Why is it that information system break down when you most need them?

https://www.southamptonairport.com/departures-arrivals/ :

Departures & arrivals
Arrival and departure information is currently unavailable

Back up and running, with a message about FlyBe not operating any more. There are no other flights to show. Southampton council was in the process of planning an extension to the runway to enable bigger airlines to operate, as EasyJet have said they want to start services from there. That has been put on hold, and there aren't many other operators of turboprop aircraft who could take over from Flybe.

Looks like Loganair are stepping in starting next week, at least for Edinburgh, Glasgow, Newcastle and maybe a couple more.  I wonder if they’ll use ex-FlyBe aeroplanes?

All routes that I used when I was still working, because you could basically get almost a full working day in and avoid a hotel stay.

Paul

Logan have said what they will be using and the prices in an article featured on Devon live. Means nothing to me to compare if it’s ex Flybe stuff.

All first group TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) have now extended acceptance of a Flybe flight until 12 March now with further review to be made by then

[Thatcham Crossing]

Posted by: broadgage
Insert Quote
Whilst I am sorry for those thrown out of work, and those whose travel plans have been disrupted, taking the wider view the failure of another airline is good news for the environment.
If we are serious about the climate emergency, we need to fly less and not more. Air travel is very carbon intensive and likely to remain so.

Hopefully some people will now fly less, making use of rail instead, or even staying in one place.

Some of the routes formerly operated by Flybe will presumably be taken over by competitors, but others may close permanently. Those who flew infrequently may have to accept the extra time taken by rail.
Those who flew frequently might have to review their location and business affairs so as to reduce the need for such frequent long distance travel.

I really can't make up my mind whether Broadgage lives in the past or the future, but it's some kind of utopian dreamworld, whatever it is.

I was a fairly regular Flybe passenger, and am sad about what's happened. Mainly for their front-line staff, who were always great and appeared professional right to the end last night, from what I have seen and heard.

There were let down by a succession of poor senior management teams, who mostly had delusions of grandeur that cost the airline a fortune and were ultimately a big part of it's downfall.

I used Flybe mainly for trips that involve a day trip and a sea crossing (I can't "use rail instead" for those!). These journeys also can't be achieved in the required timescales by any other means of transport. I'm not prepared and don't have time to spend a total of, say, 3 days away for a few hours meeting a Customer face-to-face, which is what it would take for some of these if I used ground and sea transportation (I would also add that we do many meetings virtually, but there is sometimes no alternative but a face-to-face, for example when negotiating complex agreements).

I use rail when I can aswell, when staying on the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) mainland, including some long day trips that could be done by air. My point really is that it's a mix, and to say you should stop travelling or do it all by rail is simply just an idealogical oversimplification!

To answer on another question, I'm fairly sure that all or nearly all of Flybe's aircraft are leased, so the lessors will re-possess and then try to re-market them. They may in time find their way to other operators (anywhere globally) but those operators will need to have pilots type-rated to fly them, and I would be fairly sure that an operator like Loganair (which operates different types) won't have many, if any, that are rated to fly Flybe's Q400's, for example.

[sikejsudjek3]

The rail line from Newquay to Par isn't much of an improvement over using a horse and cart. Flybe's Dash aircraft were amongst the most environmentally friendly aircraft out there.

[ellendune]

The rail line from Newquay to Par isn't much of an improvement over using a horse and cart. Flybe's Dash aircraft were amongst the most environmentally friendly aircraft out there.

I don't think that Flybe's services was particulalrly serving Newquay, but the whole of Cornwall.  It is the speed of services generally to Cornwall that is therefore the issue not the Newquay branch. 

[Thatcham Crossing]

It is the speed of services generally to Cornwall that is therefore the issue not the Newquay branch.

....and that is why the replacement of Flybe on the PSO Newquay to London route needs to get sorted PDQ, with government assistance if possible. Anything beyond Exeter (or Plymouth at a stretch) is not doable for a day trip by rail from London and the Thames Valley.

[Celestial]

It is the speed of services generally to Cornwall that is therefore the issue not the Newquay branch.

....and that is why the replacement of Flybe on the PSO Newquay to London route needs to get sorted PDQ, with government assistance if possible. Anything beyond Exeter (or Plymouth at a stretch) is not doable for a day trip by rail from London and the Thames Valley.

3 hrs to Plymouth is not doable in a day return to/from London? I suspect the stats would show quite a lot of such journeys are undertaken.

[Celestial]

Posted by: broadgage
Insert Quote

I really can't make up my mind whether Broadgage lives in the past or the future, but it's some kind of utopian dreamworld, whatever it is.

Utopian, but at the same time scary, judging by the contingency planning that goes into place for the day the world ends.  Though at least he will have a clean backside when it does.

edited to fix quotes

[Celestial]

Hopefully some people will now fly less, making use of rail instead, or even staying in one place.

Some of the routes formerly operated by Flybe will presumably be taken over by competitors, but others may close permanently. Those who flew infrequently may have to accept the extra time taken by rail.
Those who flew frequently might have to review their location and business affairs so as to reduce the need for such frequent long distance travel.

So far, Loganair has announced plans to takeover 16 routes, and Eastern another two, typically routes where the rail alternatives are over 4 or 5 hours. In addition, Easyjet had already announced start dates this Spring from Scottish airports to Birmingham.  So your wish isn't about to come too true just yet. 

[Bob_Blakey]

...I'm fairly sure that all or nearly all of Flybe's aircraft are leased, so the lessors will re-possess and then try to re-market them. They may in time find their way to other operators (anywhere globally) but those operators will need to have pilots type-rated to fly them, and I would be fairly sure that an operator like Loganair (which operates different types) won't have many, if any, that are rated to fly Flybe's Q400's, for example.

Loganair have said that their intention to takeover (some of) the former Flybe routes serving Glasgow, Edinburgh & Newcastle will require the recruitment of around 100 additional staff and preference will be given to (suitably qualified) ex-Flybe people. I guess that implies they wouldn't be averse to leasing a small number of the mothballed Q400's unless they are prepared to retrain pilots & cabin crew which would presumably delay reinstatement of the specified services.

It would be very good for our local economy if Flybe Aviation Services, which was registered as a separate entity some time ago and is still in business, could continue as the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) Q400 engineering base.

[SandTEngineer]

It is the speed of services generally to Cornwall that is therefore the issue not the Newquay branch.

....and that is why the replacement of Flybe on the PSO Newquay to London route needs to get sorted PDQ, with government assistance if possible. Anything beyond Exeter (or Plymouth at a stretch) is not doable for a day trip by rail from London and the Thames Valley.

Not quite true.  Depends what you consider as doable.....

London Paddington d0637  Penzance a1141
Penzance d1745  London Paddington a2356

Penzance d0458  London Paddington a1000
London Paddington d1804  (FO d1904) Penzance a2307 (FO a0034)

Lots of alternatives (mostly hourly throughout the day) and lots of intermediate places not served by direct flights.

Just out of interest, what would be the comparable times from Central London to Penzance by flying?

[PhilWakely]

It is the speed of services generally to Cornwall that is therefore the issue not the Newquay branch.

....and that is why the replacement of Flybe on the PSO Newquay to London route needs to get sorted PDQ, with government assistance if possible. Anything beyond Exeter (or Plymouth at a stretch) is not doable for a day trip by rail from London and the Thames Valley.

Not quite true.  Depends what you consider as doable.....

London Paddington d0637  Penzance a1141
Penzance d1745  London Paddington a2356

Penzance d0458  London Paddington a1000
London Paddington d1804  (FO d1904) Penzance a2307 (FO a0034)

Lots of alternatives (mostly hourly throughout the day) and lots of intermediate places not served by direct flights.

Just out of interest what would be the comparable times from Central London to Penzance by flying?

At a walk-up cost of £294.20 - or, if you are lucky enough to qualify for a railcard that is valid in the early morning, £194.85 (OK, slightly cheaper if you purchase two singles)!

[SandTEngineer]

It is the speed of services generally to Cornwall that is therefore the issue not the Newquay branch.

....and that is why the replacement of Flybe on the PSO Newquay to London route needs to get sorted PDQ, with government assistance if possible. Anything beyond Exeter (or Plymouth at a stretch) is not doable for a day trip by rail from London and the Thames Valley.

Not quite true.  Depends what you consider as doable.....

London Paddington d0637  Penzance a1141
Penzance d1745  London Paddington a2356

Penzance d0458  London Paddington a1000
London Paddington d1804  (FO d1904) Penzance a2307 (FO a0034)

Lots of alternatives (mostly hourly throughout the day) and lots of intermediate places not served by direct flights.

Just out of interest what would be the comparable times from Central London to Penzance by flying?

At a walk-up cost of £294.20 - or, if you are lucky enough to qualify for a railcard that is valid in the early morning, £194.85 (OK, slightly cheaper if you purchase two singles)!

So, what would the equivalent fare in total be for the same trip by flying for part of the journey then?  How many people buy an equivalent 'walkup' air fare?

[grahame]

Not quite true.  Depends what you consider as doable.....

London Paddington d0637  Penzance a1141
Penzance d1745  London Paddington a2356

Can't help wondering if Penzance is a "worst case scenario" - the Cornish Main Line is not all about Penzance!

Passenger numbers (last reported year)
570,000 - Penzance

Shorter journeys (so shorter journey / better day in Cornwall) include
328,000 - Redruth
266,000 - Camborne (but do the trains in these examples stop there Wednesdays?)
1,187,000 - Truro (noting this number skewed by local Falmouth traffic)
460,000 - St Austell
234,000 - Bodmin Parkway
351,000 - Liskeard (noting this number skewed by local Looe traffic)

[TonyK]

...I'm fairly sure that all or nearly all of Flybe's aircraft are leased, so the lessors will re-possess and then try to re-market them. They may in time find their way to other operators (anywhere globally) but those operators will need to have pilots type-rated to fly them, and I would be fairly sure that an operator like Loganair (which operates different types) won't have many, if any, that are rated to fly Flybe's Q400's, for example.

Loganair have said that their intention to takeover (some of) the former Flybe routes serving Glasgow, Edinburgh & Newcastle will require the recruitment of around 100 additional staff and preference will be given to (suitably qualified) ex-Flybe people. I guess that implies they wouldn't be averse to leasing a small number of the mothballed Q400's unless they are prepared to retrain pilots & cabin crew which would presumably delay reinstatement of the specified services.

It would be very good for our local economy if Flybe Aviation Services, which was registered as a separate entity some time ago and is still in business, could continue as the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) Q400 engineering base.

The Flybe fleet, or more accurately the former Flybe fleet, had a few owned aircraft, mainly the Q400s, but mainly leased. I am not sure of the exact split so base this on a small random sample in G-INFO, the CAA^» (Civil Aviation Authority - about)'s registration portal.

As for type ratings, there are unfortunately no common ratings between Flybe and Loganair. Flybe's turboprop aircraft were all DHC Dash-8 400 (Q400 in common parlance), needing the EASA^» (European Aviation Safety Agency - about) DHC8 type rating. Loganair use four different turbo prop types: one ATR 42 and three ATR 72s, with a common rating to cover both, 14 Saab 340s, and 2 Saab 2000s, each of which has its own rating. For pure jets, they have 4 Embraer ERJ-135 and 13 ERJ-145 aircraft, with a common rating. Flybe had 9 ERJ-175 and a single ERJ-195, both of which can be flown with the EMB170 rating.

Commercial pilots can only be current on one type, so even though a Flybe pilot may have flown ERJ-145s before the airline changed, they can't just walk into them again. The reason for this rule is to avoid confusion. The primary flight controls are the same, much of the layout of the secondary controls will be very similar, but there are critical differences in weights and airspeeds especially. They are, however, in the same class of aircraft, being either twin engine jet or twin engine turboprop. Conversion to a new type of the same class won't take long, and could involve as little as a few days in a simulator. A period of flying with a supervising pilot will follow - they are all pilot and co-pilot anyway.

Looking at the difference in the fleets may give a pointer as to why it all went wrong. In every case, Flybe have the larger aircraft. That is a good thing if they are full, much less so if not, and a couple of empty seats can be the difference between profit and loss for a flight. Loganair seems to have adopted a more cautious approach.

[Thatcham Crossing]

London Paddington d0637  Penzance a1141
Penzance d1745  London Paddington a2356

Penzance d0458  London Paddington a1000
London Paddington d1804  (FO d1904) Penzance a2307 (FO a0034)

Those in reality mean a 20+ hour day (door to door), which I don't think is realistic.

I will concede that Plymouth is doable though, and is about equivalent to the longest day trip I do regularly myself, which is from West Berks to Leeds, at about 4hrs each way (which still means around a 13-14hr day door-to-door though).

Note to Broadgage!: I do this by rail, although I could fly it, because I can work and I actually enjoy the rail journey (last time on an Azuma^▸ (Brand name for Class 80x trains on LNER) up and a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) back for comparative purposes!)

There were many Cornish folks on social media yesterday (look at Newquay Airport's Facebook page, as an example) decrying the loss of the London airlink and the business and personal impacts, so I stand by my hope that it is resurrected asap.