The end of coal

[whole diary]

[Bmblbzzz]

Firstly presuming that this Is spent oil seed, then it is a valuable animal feeding stuff and burning it for fuel is rather a waste. When eaten by animals, the dung of the animals is a valuable fertiliser.

In many places, the dung of animals is saved, dried and burnt as fuel for cooking or domestic heating. Burning the spent oil seed simply cuts out the middleman! (or middlecow).

But you're right that as with all cases of using food or food-related items for fuel, we need to ask whether it's a sensible use. Though I expect the amount used by Talyllyn railway, even should they go over to it for all uses, is negligible compared to the amount produced nationally.

[stuving]

Firstly presuming that this Is spent oil seed, then it is a valuable animal feeding stuff and burning it for fuel is rather a waste. When eaten by animals, the dung of the animals is a valuable fertiliser.

In many places, the dung of animals is saved, dried and burnt as fuel for cooking or domestic heating. Burning the spent oil seed simply cuts out the middleman! (or middlecow).

But you're right that as with all cases of using food or food-related items for fuel, we need to ask whether it's a sensible use. Though I expect the amount used by Talyllyn railway, even should they go over to it for all uses, is negligible compared to the amount produced nationally.

That sounds like similar logic to the Ecotricity (prop. Dale Vince) plan to meet all our gas requirements greenly, i.e. from grass directly.

How is green gas made?

Unlike other forms of green gas which often use animal waste, ours is made ethically and sustainably from grass cuttings. The grass is broken down by anaerobic digestion in vats, producing biomethane. This is then captured and fed into the grid.

Can we power Britain with green gas?

Yes. Our 2022 report on powering Britain using green gas mills shows exactly how we can do it without taking away land for food production.

As the report demonstrates, we can power both homes and businesses with green gas – and it’s much cheaper and faster than making everyone convert to heat pumps.

The cited report from Imperial Consultants claims to be independent, but it doesn't really read like it.

For some reason nobody else seems to believe in this idea. The report does assume a decline in meat eating and thus production as a source of spare grassland to harvest, though so do other prognisticators. I suspect the numbers need to be looked at carefully to work out if they make any sense. Still, they are now building the first of their "green grass mills" somewhere near Reading.

[Bmblbzzz]

Isn't that sort of super-silage at heart? Dale Vince of course has his personal ethics to produce 'green gas' without using animal products (which would include by-products such as waste) and these might also influence the maths with the decline of meat eating.

Still, I'd rather have him as owner of a football club than, say, Mike Ashley!

[TonyK]

For some reason nobody else seems to believe in this idea. The report does assume a decline in meat eating and thus production as a source of spare grassland to harvest, though so do other prognisticators. I suspect the numbers need to be looked at carefully to work out if they make any sense. Still, they are now building the first of their "green grass mills" somewhere near Reading.

There must be a subsidy there somewhere. Otherwise, someone would point out that using the farmland to grow fuel would mean importing more food, with all the problems that brings. Even if the proportion of UK^▸ (United Kingdom) citizens eating meat were to fall below the present 90%-95%, it would still make more sense to reduce food miles by growing more of the stuff here. Raising crops for fuel whilst flying lettuces from Africa seems like robbing Peter to pay Paul, then robbing both of them again.

[broadgage]

We should not in my view by flying lettuces in from anywhere. Waste of fuel.

Some food imports are unavoidable, but these should in my view by non perishable, high energy density foods that can be imported by sea or rail.
Grain, canned meat, edible oils and fats, or spices and condiments that are only needed in small volumes.

I am in general opposed to energy crops displacing food.

Trees for building timber and firewood can be grown in places unsuited for food crops.

[TonyK]

I am in general opposed to energy crops displacing food.

Trees for building timber and firewood can be grown in places unsuited for food crops.

We disagree again, alyhough only on matters of degree. I am wholly opposed to energy crops displacing food.

I also abhor so-called biomass power, which relies on importing kiln-dried wood pellets from across the Atlantic. Some studies show that the biggest power station using this fuel emits more carbon dioxide than it did when it burned coal. These sound like good ideas and attract the attention of politicians keen to tick a few boxes in the carbon records. That drives perverse behaviour. Biodigesters were originally supposed to use waste, from animals and crops. Fields of maize are grown just to feed them now, with stuff being transported from the Bristol area to Devon in some cases. They use the slurry from dairy farms, which turns another waste product, albeit a valuable one, into a much less smelly fertiliser, but slurry can't work on its own. Farm crop waste doesn't produce as much gas as maize when added to the mix, so the fields fill with maize instead of feeding the cattle. If the whole country were to suddenly go vegan, I would wager that cattle would still be bred to make waste for biodigesters until the end of the subsidy programme.

Om places unsuitable for food crops, you see a lot of Christmas trees being grown under high voltage electricity lines. I don't think it's because the magnetic fields promote growth so much as the ground being unsuitable for much else.

[Bmblbzzz]

A lot of maize that's grown in Britain is as cover for pheasants, I'm told (by someone who spent several years in agricultural work). Some of it is not even harvested.

[eightonedee]

To give an idea of the acreages involved, last night I had a conversation with a local farmer who is part of a consortium running a gas (for energy)-producing digester. The consortium has about 5000 acres under cultivation for various crops, half of which are for feedstock for the digester.

Apparently there is seen to be a market for the gas in Germany. Although there is quite a digester industry there, the gas currently goes straight for use for electricity generation.

If this is typical, I imagine that the odd use of maize for gamebird cover is inconsequential by comparison.

[paul7575]

A lot of maize that's grown in Britain is as cover for pheasants, I'm told (by someone who spent several years in agricultural work). Some of it is not even harvested.

Remarkable!

Amaizing!  

[chuffed]

This thread reminded me of a song, that some of us, of a certain surfeit of old men excluded by GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) customer surveys, might recall....

Mairzy doats and dozy doats and liddle lamzy divey
A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you?
Yes, mairzy doats and dozy doats and liddle lamzy divey
A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you?
If the words sound queer and funny to your ear
A little bit jumbled and jivey
Sing mares eat oats and does eat oats and little lambs eat ivy

The last lines about animal feedstuffs for biomass set me thinking !

[TonyK]

Fields behind my house are used to grow maize, harvested every September. Some goes to produce slurry at the nearby dairy farm by being put through the moo-cows, but it seems that most goes direct to the local antisocial digester to produce subsidies.

Harvesting is by contractors and goes on around the clock next to me and elsewhere around the outskirts of the village.





It soon mounts up:



It isn't used for cover for pheasants, which is not to say that wildlife doesn't show more easily when it is gone:





A few days after harvesting, the fields are ploughed, fertilised with the output from the antisocial digester, then seeded with grass. Again, this is a 24 hour operation.

Occasionally, someone will forget to close a gate, leading to the neighbours taking advantage:



and even showing a bit of natural curiosity. Or looking to see if Shaun the Sheep has started.



Now - where were we?

[broadgage]

One picture looks like the roof of a very large shed. Just the sort of structure that should be covered with solar panels, thereby adding to green energy supplies without use of any extra land.

Even the basic "deemed to comply" limit of about 11 kw at three phase 400 volts would help, but bigger is better if conditions allow.

[Bmblbzzz]

I was told recently by a Shropshire resident that a signaller on the Severn Valley Railway had informed that the official reason for running only diesel services this summer – the risk of line side fires – was not the whole truth. "They've run out of coal. It all came from Russia and now they can't get anymore."

[grahame]

I was told recently by a Shropshire resident that a signaller on the Severn Valley Railway had informed that the official reason for running only diesel services this summer – the risk of line side fires – was not the whole truth. "They've run out of coal. It all came from Russia and now they can't get anymore."

There's often more than once cause of an issue ... and for simplicity just one issue is headlined / made public

Why are heritage railway customers there?   Some for the ride or the day out, others for a spot of nostalgia or to see and experience things as they used to be, or were when they were young.  We've discussed in the past why steam locomotives from the grouping era (up to 1948) are so often painted in their nationalised colours in preservation, and concluded that it might be because that's how they're more familiar to customers seeking nostalgia.

Taking that argument further, and looking at fire risk, coal availability, and the environmental profile of steam locomotives, would there be sense in having steam run on special occasions in a hopefully-damper spring and autumn special weekend or two, and having summer trains loco hauled by class 24, 25, 28, 33, 35, 42, 50, 52 ... or run with class 101, 108, 116, 121, 122 or (please!) 201 multiple units.  And, yes, use pacers for the alternate trains within peak multi-train timetables.

[broadgage]

IME^▸ (in my experience), most visitors to heritage lines want and expect steam. This should therefore be provided whenever possible. The odd suspension of steam power is reasonable at times of extreme fire risk, or coal shortage, or of course during "diesel gala" type events.
But most visitors expect steam.

As regards the enviromental cost of coal burning, I have long felt that most heritage lines could be a bit greener in other respects. Solar power on buildings. Battery locomotive for shunting and ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) moves. Electric pre heating of steam locomotives.
Battery train for any regular commuter trains that are to be run.