Graduated driving licenses??

[whole diary]

[grahame]

From Microsoft News / Daily Mail

Drivers over the age of 70 who suffer from poor health could be allowed to retain their licences if they stick to roads in their local area.

New proposals being discussed by the DVLA^▸ (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency) and Driving Mobility would also see elderly motorists installing a tracker on their vehicle as part of a 'graduated driving licence' scheme.

[snip]

The new 'graduated driving licences' would see elderly drivers, suffering with health problems, restricted to an area of just 20 or 30 miles from their home and could see a night time ban enforced.

Edward Trewhella, chief executive of Driving Mobility, said that many elderly drivers tend to stick to their local areas anyway when driving, making short trips to carry out personal errands.

He said: 'This process would regularise that, and make it legal for them to do so as long as they didn't take a trip outside of an area or outside of a time restriction.'

[ChrisB]

Huh? Either they're a danger on the roads or they're not, surely? Is it ok to injure someone/something locally but not regionally? I don't understand this.

Surely, a retaken test shows whether they are still capable?

[grahame]

Huh? Either they're a danger on the roads or they're not, surely? Is it ok to injure someone/something locally but not regionally? I don't understand this.

Surely, a retaken test shows whether they are still capable?

Indeed ... from Science Direct

Injury crashes are over-represented on roads close to home, even when controlling for exposure.

The close to home effect holds for male and female drivers of all ages.

Novice drivers are the only group not to show a close to home effect.

The close to home effect may be related to complacency when driving on familiar roads.

[stuving]

Huh? Either they're a danger on the roads or they're not, surely? Is it ok to injure someone/something locally but not regionally? I don't understand this.

Surely, a retaken test shows whether they are still capable?

If you look a bit closer, this is only about a way of restoring some mobility to those who currently would lose their license automatically for medical reasons. The issue is not competence, but mainly the ability to maintain concentration for long enough periods. Hence it arose in discussion between DLVA and Driving Mobility, which is a DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)-supported "network of centres which offer high quality information, assessment and advice about mobility".

[ChrisB]

My point still stands - either they're a danger or they're not, whether close to home or not. Also Graham found that more accidents happen close to home, even in their age group

Indeed ... from

Science Direct

Injury crashes are over-represented on roads close to home, even when controlling for exposure.

The close to home effect holds for male and female drivers of all ages.

Novice drivers are the only group not to show a close to home effect.

The close to home effect may be related to complacency when driving on familiar roads.

[ellendune]

I know of people who would be safe driving during the day, but not at night. 

[TonyK]

My point still stands - either they're a danger or they're not, whether close to home or not. Also Graham found that more accidents happen close to home, even in their age group

Graham's findings show, though, that older people are at no higher risk than anyone else when it comes to switching into "nearly home" mode. It is possible that the reasons for the accidents and the distance driven vary with age. A younger person may drive a thousand miles per week in connection with work, but someone at the frailer end of the spectrum may only drive to and from a shopping area or supermarket. Our young man may have driven his lorry from the depot five miles away to Istanbul and back, and begun to plan that long soak in the bath when he failed to spot a hazard, whereas his neighbour of more tender years could have just collected the guide dog from the vets after a routine service, and chanced upon a visitor who didn't know to get out of the way whenever they heard him coming. I don't think we can read too much into that statistic.

I have known personally of a number of people who wouldn't drive at night, in two cases being registered blind, plus one who went to elaborate lengths to avoid turning right. An elderly relative once scared the living daylights out of me by picking me up from Temple Meads - he had dementia, I learned subsequently, and hadn't realised that the traffic system had changed since the war. I hope I never get to the stage of not realising that I shouldn't be driving. Most of these people certainly shouldn't have still been behind the wheel, a fact that would have been immediately obvious  had they reported their limitations to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA^▸ (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency)). They didn't, and I suppose the point of this exercise is to get them to do so in exchange for limited permission, rather than tick the "OK" box when renewing the licence because to do otherwise would mean an immediate stop to motoring. That doesn't mean I agree though.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying acronyms

[broadgage]

I do not see the merit of allowing some drivers to only drive within a certain area, If they are unfit to drive and a risk to other road users, then they just as unfit five miles from home as they would be fifty miles from home.

What might be acceptable would be to restrict the type of vehicle that can be driven. A car of strictly limited speed and weight is a much lower risk and could perhaps be allowed to those judged unfit to hold a full licence.

In parts of Europe vehicles are available called VSPs, which may be loosely translated as "yours without permit" They are limited to 28 MPH and in some countries can be used lawfully by anyone over 14, after a few hours instruction. No insurance, MOT certificate or full licence is required.

Known popularly as "oldie killers" though serious accidents are in fact rare.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35210572 This sort of thing.
Petrol powered, but an electric version should be possible, and could charge overnight from a standard 13 amp socket, no expensive high capacity charge point needed.

[eightonedee]

This is quite a difficult matter, but I think there are a few points to make.

Firstly, we all will travel much more frequently in the area in the immediate vicinity of our homes. There is an implication in the study (in New Zealand) that there was more taking risks with alcohol and less attention. But could it also be that we tend to live in urban areas with much heavier traffic, so the 62% of accidents in 50% of journeys may not reflect "exposure" that is referred to in the summary of the paper, especially in a thinly populated country like New Zealand.

Secondly, I have known a number of elderly motorists who have reduced the length of their journeys because as they get old and frail they find that they cannot concentrate for as long as they used to. This supports the suggestion of distance limits.

Thirdly, the issue of dementia is a very difficult one. Many sufferers will not recognise its onset, and indeed I know from family experience it can be difficult to work out when just getting a bit forgetful and vague moves into dementia. And when it becomes clear, stopping an elderly relative driving is one of the more difficult moments you will have in your relationship with them.

Fourthly, deteriorating eye-sight is as difficult an issue as dementia, but in my experience the elderly are much more willing to acknowledge that they are having difficulty at night than being willing to give up altogether when other age related problems arise.

[broadgage]

My late grandmother who was not in my view a very good driver, never even sat a driving test !
She started driving before the introduction of the driving test. A driving licence was required, but this was simply purchased at the post office with no test.
No driving test had to be sat in order to drive "carriage and four" so why would any test be needed for a new horseless carriage ?
One could in that era simply walk into a post office and purchase "one driving licence, two gun licences, and a dog licence, please"

[grahame]

I used to drive 30,000 miles a year.  Cut that to 3,000 a few years back (once it became practical with public transport service and far less heavy equipment to take) and last year can't have been much more than 300.  Days gone by, I have driven Mallaig to Easterton in a day, and Melksham to Dublin via Fishuard and Holyhead. And that famous Easterton - Stevenage - Church Stretton - Kingswood - Easterton day in a hire van.  I would not attempt them again; my limits have come down - but I can't see what / where / how a legal limit on me would work.   

Common sense DOES work and long country drives in the dark are out. I have stopped at motorway service areas for a break and kip and would simply do so more or plan for a hotel these days.  Is it possible to leave to common sense? Is there sense in "only in your 30 m.p.h zone"?

[broadgage]

I was most uneasy at my now late Mother driving, following a couple of narrow escapes.
The worst was approaching Taunton station from the Minehead direction.
The main road passes under the bridge that carries the railway line. It is one way TOWARDS Minehead. Mother drove the wrong way towards the station, no accident occured but it was very concerning.
Mother was not entirely convinced that she had done anything wrong, on the grounds that the sign saying "TAUNTON STATION" Was in clear sight, straight ahead (painted on the side of the railway bridge)

The journey in question would have counted as local. As would have driving into a barrier accross a private road near Blue Anchor station.

[stuving]

What I see emerging from all this is that the key factor is whether an individual can judge their own limitations, especially as they decline only slowly. Most elderly drivers do that pretty well at the moment. But it's not something that's assessed by any test - not a driving test, nor the medical questionnaire, nor the new idea being discussed here.

[broadgage]

What I see emerging from all this is that the key factor is whether an individual can judge their own limitations, especially as they decline only slowly. Most elderly drivers do that pretty well at the moment. But it's not something that's assessed by any test - not a driving test, nor the medical questionnaire, nor the new idea being discussed here.

I agree, but the use of small and lightweight vehicle, limited to 28 MPH and prohibited on motorways would greatly reduce the consequences if the elderly driver misjudges their capabilities.
No formal limit on length of journey, but a top speed of 28 MPH and being prohibited on motorways would discourage long trips.
No more dangerous than a horse and cart (no licence needed)
Not much more dangerous than a mobility scooter (licence not usually required)
Not much more dangerous than an E-bike (no licence needed)

If I was in charge I would permit lightweight low speed electric vehicles to be used without a licence or test.

Light electric car, 3 or 4 wheeled.
Max empty weight----------------200 Kilos
Max payload-----------------------200 Kilos (two people with light luggage or shopping.)
Max speed -------------------------25 MPH.
100% ELECTRIC.
No licence needed, operable by anyone over 14. Not allowed on moterways.
Faster and heavier electric cars would be subject to the same regulations as at present.

Electricly assisted cycles, scooters and similar vehicles.
Max speed under power-----------25 MPH
Max empty weight-----------------50 Kilos.
Operable by anyone over 10 years. No tax, licence, safety hat, or other formalities required.

Higher powered electric two wheelers would be allowed, but subject to the same rules as petrol motorcycles.

[TaplowGreen]

In parts of Europe vehicles are available called VSPs, which may be loosely translated as "yours without permit" They are limited to 28 MPH and in some countries can be used lawfully by anyone over 14, after a few hours instruction. No insurance, MOT certificate or full licence is required.

If there's no insurance, what happens in the event of an accident? (for example)