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Author Topic: GWML Electrification - Campaign against bi-mode  (Read 46223 times)
Rhydgaled
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« on: February 27, 2011, 16:36:54 »

The purpose of this message is to call your attention to rumours that the Department For Transport plan to:
^   cancel the electrification between Bristol Parkway and Swansea and
^   cancel the new electric trains planned for the Great Western
Instead, they plan to order a fleet of bi-mode trains (diesel multiple units with the ability to run off the overhead wires on electrified sections). I hope you will join me in protesting to the transport secretary against these plans. I enclose my own protest letter should you wish to use or adapt it. I hope you are interested in supporting this protest.

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I wish to register my protest against the planed adoption of bi-mode multiple units for INTERCITY services. Some of the advantages of electrification are:
1.   reduced weight of rolling stock, resulting in:
  • improved performance
  • lower greenhouse gas emissions
2.   no emissions at point of use
3.   lower maintenance requirements / greater reliability
4.   lower noise levels

Adopting the bi-mode plan would sacrifice advantages 1 and 3 and would restrict advantages 2 and 4 to electrified sections. Enhancing the environmental advantage of rail should be the top priority in designing new trains. On these grounds I protest against the plan and suggest instead greater electrification, covering all the main INTERCITY destinations such as Swansea with places beyond this reached by hauling the trains with diesel locomotives. This would remove the internal noise from under-floor diesel engines.

Consideration should also be given to planned length of the stock. The plans are apparently for 26m stock, which I am told would be out of loading gauge on many of the routes the current 23m stock can serve. This would mean, for example, that the popular summer Saturday tourist trains to Tenby and Pembroke Dock would have to cease.
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Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
ChrisB
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« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2011, 16:59:37 »

I think you're wrong about cancelling West of Parkway.
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inspector_blakey
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« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2011, 20:03:17 »

Isn't it jumping the gun slightly to start firing off letters of complaint based solely on rumours, before anything has actually been formally announced?
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ChrisB
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« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2011, 22:12:53 »

I doubt you'll have too long to wait, either.....
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inspector_blakey
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2011, 03:09:00 »

Let's just hope it's not the unspeakably depressing dog's breakfast that is postulated elsewhere!
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ChrisB
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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2011, 05:21:31 »

Let's hope not!
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Rhydgaled
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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2011, 11:11:38 »

Let's just hope it's not the unspeakably depressing dog's breakfast that is postulated elsewhere!

Pretty much what I heard, except the EMU (Electric Multiple Unit) and DMU (Diesel Multiple Unit) versions will not be ordered and instead the whole fleet would be bi-mode.

I think you're wrong about cancelling West of Parkway.

Well, that's what I heard elsewhere, though in later posts it does look like it might extend to Cardiff.

Isn't it jumping the gun slightly to start firing off letters of complaint based solely on rumours, before anything has actually been formally announced?

Well, I called it a rumour, since I don't entirely trust the source. The reply the DaFT» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about) sent me did nothing to claim otherwise, so I think it's more than just a rumour now.
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Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
ChrisB
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« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2011, 11:13:11 »

Can you publish here their response please?
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eightf48544
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« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2011, 11:25:49 »

Can anyone explain why D(a)FT are fixated with Multiunits.

For IC (Inter City) services with an off wire destination loco hauled push pull is by far the cheapest option. Even if you factor in buying a handful of diesel locos for the off wire part. 10 non powered coaches plus 5Mw electric loco is considerable cheaper per train than a 10 coach bi-mode .    

Loco changes ought to be under 5 minutes so not a problem at places like Plymouth, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Carnforth, Leeds etc.
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Tim
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« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2011, 13:48:20 »

Can anyone explain why D(a)FT are fixated with Multiunits.

Because it gives them an excuse to lengthen the Meridians which is something that needs doing anyway on capacity grounds,  but the business case looks better if it is worked up into an electrification project?   Just a guess?
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eightf48544
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« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2011, 16:56:54 »

Tim interesting thought but i don't think they are that clever, and there's a hint in this month's Modern Railways that the Meridians may not be made bi-mode.
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JayMac
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« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2011, 17:34:39 »

Has anyone considered the possibility that these new trains might actually be quite nice?

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"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of the day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

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inspector_blakey
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« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2011, 18:29:15 »

Apparently not. It's a relentless stream of "everything was better in the 1960s" pessimism. See also main thread on GWML (Great Western Main Line) electrification in "Across the West". Never mind that I doubt anyone has done anything about an interior specification yet, there's no possibility that they'll be anything other than awful because they won't be loco-hauled.   Roll EyesTongue
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Rhydgaled
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« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2011, 18:39:38 »

Has anyone considered the possibility that these new trains might actually be quite nice?
Of course they won't be nice, even if the solution is loco hauled as I think it should be, it is current practice that new trains have rock-hard airline seating with insufficent legroom. No, my campaign is for the enviromentally friendly option over reducing rail's green advantages.

Anyway, here's the reply I recived:
Quote
I refer to your email, dated 20 February, addressed to the Secretary of State, concerning the Intercity Express Project (IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.)). This matter has been passed to me for attention. I note your considerable interest in the whole project, both from previous correspondence and your most recent communication. As someone brought up in the territory served by the Southern (Electric), I can appreciate your views towards total electrification. Indeed, the Coalition Government has already decided on the application of electrification along parts of the Great Western Main Line, with consideration being given to further extensions, as well as announcing commitments in the North West. For various practical, as well as (importantly) value for money (from the use of taxpayers^ money), there will probably always be a limitation as to the extent to which ^wiring^ can be applied. I think you might agree that the ability of a fleet of trains (bi-modes) to operate as full electric units, where wiring is available, but be capable of working independently where this was not present, has certain advantages. Not only at the extremity of inter city routes, where the capital cost of electrification cannot be justified for the volumes of business involved, but, for example, to operate over diversionary routes when the main (electrified) route is not available, due to engineering works or some other situation.  I hope you will find there will be quite an improvement between the ride, sound and emissions quality of a modern bi mode train, compared with some of the rolling stock currently in use.      

Government is committed to the continuation of through train services and I would suggest that, in a small number of cases, it may be necessary for a train operator to source the rolling stock separately to say the IEP fleet. We are aware of the situation you have highlighted, but it is a matter of specifying new trains which will deal with the great majority of present and importantly, future traffic levels, between major population centres.            

I hope this provides a little more background information and is helpful to you. Thank you for taking the trouble to write.  

My kind regards,
Tony Francis
Rail Projects Sponsor

It is interesting to note that he mentions TOCs (Train Operating Company) having to source the rolling stock for some services separately, which is contradictary to the idea of ordering a single uniform fleet of bi-mode stock, even for totally wired routes, to reduce costs.

For IC (Inter City) services with an off wire destination loco hauled push pull is by far the cheapest option. Even if you factor in buying a handful of diesel locos for the off wire part. 10 non powered coaches plus 5Mw electric loco is considerable cheaper per train than a 10 coach bi-mode .    

Loco changes ought to be under 5 minutes so not a problem at places like Plymouth, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Carnforth, Leeds etc.
Exactly my opinion, though I think existing diesel locos (eg. 57s, 47s and 37s) could be used and frequent services (at least hourly, and possibly up to 2-hourly) would be easier with an EMU (Electric Multiple Unit) dragged by a diesel. Swansea should be wired up, making that the loco-swap point not Cardiff. I think you might get away with a new EMU fleet on most routes, maybe dragged off wire by diesels in a few cases, and using the existing INTERCITY 225 fleet on Carmarthen/Pembroke/Aberdeen/Inverness (and similar) services with the loco swapping for a diesel at Swansea and Edingbourgh.
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Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
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« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2011, 19:22:11 »

Apparently not. It's a relentless stream of "everything was better in the 1960s" pessimism. See also main thread on GWML (Great Western Main Line) electrification in "Across the West". Never mind that I doubt anyone has done anything about an interior specification yet, there's no possibility that they'll be anything other than awful because they won't be loco-hauled.   Roll EyesTongue
Oh the wonderfully Mk1's with their friction dampers that were totally useless the lack of yaw dampers, lights that dimmed and went out if the train stopped for more than 5 minuets, drafty windows with dripping condensation.  The upside was the free sauna from the steam heating, when it worked. yes they were the best ever trains .......  Huh
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