Beeching cuts

[whole diary]

[Timmer]

Ah,yes,the 1966 timetable.Basically,as i mentioned above,there were all sorts of manouvres in that era which seemed to be designed to make the line as unappealing as possible- in other words,the powers that be wanted to get as much evidence as possible,obtained by whatever means,to facilitate closure of the line.The line was progressively run down from 1964 onwards

Now where have I heard something like this mentioned before? Ah yes on the S&D^▸ (Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway). I'm sure others could point out tactics like this that lead to the closing of other lines. Without wishing to go off topic but I will on this one. I have a copy of the 1965-66 Southern region timetable which shows that on Saturdays during the summer months, when the S&D would actually carry more passengers wanting to head to the coast, many services would stop running before the summer peak season and then resume again after the summer peak leaving a skeleton service that was no use to anyone. Good old BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) eh?

[Chris from Nailsea]

More off-topic (well, Timmer started it! ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaGiewYBHmM sounds familiar? 

[TerminalJunkie]

Basically,as i mentioned above,there were all sorts of manouvres in that era which seemed to be designed to make the line as unappealing as possible

Any evidence for that? As Ian Batten wrote on uk.railway:

Why would anyone do that?

That's the part I never understood about the claims that Beeching was the culmination of sole complex conspiracy to do down the railways.

Why would the Western Region or British Rail, together entirely in charge of their own timetable, deliberately and maliciously produce timetables whose only result would be their own downfall?  What would have been the motive?  How would such a conspiracy, which would have required the involvement of hundreds of people, have been constructed, and why?  How would it have enrolled the help of the small army responsible for timetabling, and ensured their silence.

"Look, guys, I want you to design connections that don't work and service patterns that actively discourage patronage, but don't write anything down and don't tell anyone?"

And fifty years later, not a single memo or credible witness has ever emerged?

[34104]

Ah,yes,the 1966 timetable.Basically,as i mentioned above,there were all sorts of manouvres in that era which seemed to be designed to make the line as unappealing as possible- in other words,the powers that be wanted to get as much evidence as possible,obtained by whatever means,to facilitate closure of the line.The line was progressively run down from 1964 onwards

Now where have I heard something like this mentioned before? Ah yes on the S&D^▸ (Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway). I'm sure others could point out tactics like this that lead to the closing of other lines. Without wishing to go off topic but I will on this one. I have a copy of the 1965-66 Southern region timetable which shows that on Saturdays during the summer months, when the S&D would actually carry more passengers wanting to head to the coast, many services would stop running before the summer peak season and then resume again after the summer peak leaving a skeleton service that was no use to anyone. Good old BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) eh?

I think there was a lot of politics and score settling involved in the West country rail closures,although how they filtered through to Beeching's eventual decisions i don't really know.As you say,the S and D suffered from re-routeing of traffic,taking the passenger census when schools were on holiday,bizarre timetabling,etc.I was always particularly puzzled by the imbalance in the ratio of seaside/coastal railway closures in Devon and Cornwall.Bude,Padstow,Lyme Regis [slightly in Dorset,i know],Seaton,Sidmouth,Ilfracombe,Budleigh Salterton and very nearly Exmouth [now carrying hundreds of thousands of passengers per year] all lost their railways and were all Southern stations.GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) closures? Helston,Fowey [although still served by freight],Brixham and the line from Chacewater to Newquay,which was served by another line anyway.Maybe there was a rational and logical explanation for this apparent imbalance,certainly gives food for thought.

[34104]

Basically,as i mentioned above,there were all sorts of manouvres in that era which seemed to be designed to make the line as unappealing as possible

Any evidence for that? As Ian Batten wrote on uk.railway:

Why would anyone do that?

That's the part I never understood about the claims that Beeching was the culmination of sole complex conspiracy to do down the railways.

Why would the Western Region or British Rail, together entirely in charge of their own timetable, deliberately and maliciously produce timetables whose only result would be their own downfall?  What would have been the motive?  How would such a conspiracy, which would have required the involvement of hundreds of people, have been constructed, and why?  How would it have enrolled the help of the small army responsible for timetabling, and ensured their silence.

"Look, guys, I want you to design connections that don't work and service patterns that actively discourage patronage, but don't write anything down and don't tell anyone?"

And fifty years later, not a single memo or credible witness has ever emerged?

Well,the strange timetables would seem to be evidence enough from my point of view.

[34104]

I think it is simply that these lines were all seen as dead losses and that they were to be operated as cheaply as possible before being closed.  The powers that be simply weren't prepared to allocate more units and crews.

Plymouth - Gunnislake was a very early reprieve - in 1964 - and this was a key element in allowing the Tavistock closure to go ahead.   

All seems mad now but officialdom, both in the railways and Government back then really did think all the lines listed in the Beeching Report were complete no-hopers.

It could have been worse - the viaducts in Tavistock were only saved from demolition because of the cost of doing so and because West Devon Borough Council then took them over.  If they had gone in the 1970s, any hope of one day reopening Tavistock - Okehampton would have disappeared for ever.  A very close run thing.








 

Yours is probably a voice of sanity and reason in what is still a fairly emotive subject,even after all these years,Richard! It can't be denied though,that the ex Southern routes in Devon and Cornwall[and beyond,if you look at the absurd singling and running down of the superb Exeter-Salisbury line] fared considerably worse than the ex GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) ones.I know from my family experience that there was extreme loathing between the employees of the two companies/regions and it seemed a strange coincidence that matters deteriorated significantly for the SR^‡(resolve) after the WR takeover in the early sixties.Still,all done and dusted,damage done now-all of the relevant people who knew the truth are probably no longer with us.


Back on topic,any idea of the progress being made by Kilbride/DCC^» (Devon County Council - website)/WDBC on the reopening?

[Andy]

Ah,yes,the 1966 timetable.Basically,as i mentioned above,there were all sorts of manouvres in that era which seemed to be designed to make the line as unappealing as possible- in other words,the powers that be wanted to get as much evidence as possible,obtained by whatever means,to facilitate closure of the line.The line was progressively run down from 1964 onwards

Now where have I heard something like this mentioned before? Ah yes on the S&D^▸ (Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway). I'm sure others could point out tactics like this that lead to the closing of other lines. Without wishing to go off topic but I will on this one. I have a copy of the 1965-66 Southern region timetable which shows that on Saturdays during the summer months, when the S&D would actually carry more passengers wanting to head to the coast, many services would stop running before the summer peak season and then resume again after the summer peak leaving a skeleton service that was no use to anyone. Good old BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) eh?

I think there was a lot of politics and score settling involved in the West country rail closures,although how they filtered through to Beeching's eventual decisions i don't really know.As you say,the S and D suffered from re-routeing of traffic,taking the passenger census when schools were on holiday,bizarre timetabling,etc.I was always particularly puzzled by the imbalance in the ratio of seaside/coastal railway closures in Devon and Cornwall.Bude,Padstow,Lyme Regis [slightly in Dorset,i know],Seaton,Sidmouth,Ilfracombe,Budleigh Salterton and very nearly Exmouth [now carrying hundreds of thousands of passengers per year] all lost their railways and were all Southern stations.GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) closures? Helston,Fowey [although still served by freight],Brixham and the line from Chacewater to Newquay,which was served by another line anyway.Maybe there was a rational and logical explanation for this apparent imbalance,certainly gives food for thought.

Many of the tactics used in running down the S&D for closure were also employed elsewhere. To the list of GWR closures in Devon and Cornwall, you can add Launceston, Ashburton, Princetown, Kingsbridge, Kingswear, Moretonhampstead, Heathfield-Exeter, and Barnstaple from (Taunton), some of these having already happened even before the Beeching swathe of the Sixties. 

[TerminalJunkie]

Basically,as i mentioned above,there were all sorts of manouvres in that era which seemed to be designed to make the line as unappealing as possible

Any evidence for that?

Well,the strange timetables would seem to be evidence enough from my point of view.

That's not "evidence" that supports any conspiracy theory; a more plausible explanation is that they just weren't able to respond to the loss of traffic effectively.

Unless you have written proof that they were determined to run the service down, simple incompetence is far more likely: just look at the way British Railways pissed squirted the Modernisation Plan money up the wall...

[34104]

Basically,as i mentioned above,there were all sorts of manouvres in that era which seemed to be designed to make the line as unappealing as possible

Any evidence for that?

Well,the strange timetables would seem to be evidence enough from my point of view.

That's not "evidence" that supports any conspiracy theory; a more plausible explanation is that they just weren't able to respond to the loss of traffic effectively.

Unless you have written proof that they were determined to run the service down, simple incompetence is far more likely: just look at the way British Railways pissed squirted the Modernisation Plan money up the wall...

I would welcome advice as to where that written proof could be obtained.I recently purchased a book called "The Great Railway Conspiracy" by a chap called David Henshaw,which i have not had time to read as yet,possibly that will provide some relevant information.It does strike me as rather odd though that perfectly rational timetables [obviously designed by able people] should suddenly turn into ones that were far from rational and frankly not much use to anybody,through simple incompetence.Perhaps the truth was that,as Richard B suggested earlier,that BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) simply regarded the lines such as the S and D and the SR^‡(resolve) mainline as dead ducks and were prepared to spend only minimal amounts to keep them going.

[TerminalJunkie]

I would welcome advice as to where that written proof could be obtained.

If any existed, do you not think it would have been found by now? 

[Phil]

Well, christian Wolmar certainly seems to buy into the conspiracy theory:

"British Railways^ tactic of gradually reducing services on lines it secretly earmarked for closure until no one bothered to use them, meant that many of Beeching^s recommendations were effectively predetermined"

Seen here, in an article which also assesses Henshaw's work on the subject: http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2008/09/rail-600-beeching-cannot-be-blamed-for-all-the-railways-ills/



(I intentionally typed his name as "christian" up there as he appears to prefer the non-capitalisation of the C word himself, as can be seen 7 or 8 lines down in the above article)

As for TJ's remark about evidence not being found; my own specialist subject happens to be obscure psychedelic rock music, which reached its peak not long after Beeching's own heyday in 1967/8, and you'd be astounded at the material, both in terms of tapes and documentary evidence (photos & contracts etc), which is continually being unearthed for the first time even today, particularly as key people who worked in that environment pass away and their estates are distributed. To assume evidence doesn't exist just because it has yet to come to light is treading on very, very thin ice indeed.

[34104]

I would welcome advice as to where that written proof could be obtained.

If any existed, do you not think it would have been found by now? 

Not necessarily,no.

[TerminalJunkie]

(I intentionally typed his name as "christian" up there as he appears to prefer the non-capitalisation of the C word himself, as can be seen 8 lines down in the above article)

No it doesn't!

my own specialist subject happens to be obscure psychedelic rock music, which reached its peak not long after Beeching's own heyday in 1967/8, and you'd be astounded at the material, both in terms of tapes and documentary evidence (photos & contracts etc), which is continually being unearthed for the first time even today

And are there as many researchers, historians and keen amateurs looking into the history of "obscure psychedelic rock music" as there are into the railways? No? Thought not...

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

That's a short sighted comment given that one person can discover something that thousands of others miss

[Chris from Nailsea]

The above posts, which discuss the wider implications of the Beeching cuts, have been split off from the Tavistock reopening topic, at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=804.msg103147#msg103147

I'm sorry if any of the resulting discussions on these two topics now seem slightly 'clunky' as a result: I did do my best to iron out any overlaps!