Return portion restrictions

[whole diary]

[Brucey]

Say I were to buy a day return with restriction B1:

Outward: Mon - Fri timed to dep after 0930
Return: By any train

Does the 0930 restriction also apply to the return journey?  I.e. could I use the return portion without having ever used (or wanted to use) the outward?

[super tm]

Yes because you cannot use a return portion without having used the outward portion first.  So your return journey will always be after 0930.

[TerminalJunkie]

Yes because you cannot use a return portion without having used the outward portion first.  So your return journey will always be after 0930.

Really? Where does it say that, then?

[super tm]

Sorry I was getting confused.  You cannot use the outward portion after the return portion has been used.  However it does not change the fact that the validity for the return portion will be the same as the outward. 

[Brucey]

Thanks - exactly what I thought

[TerminalJunkie]

However it does not change the fact that the validity for the return portion will be the same as the outward. 

Really? Where does it say that, then?

[inspector_blakey]

I forget where, but it is written down somewhere official - I've read it before. There are a few conductors and train managers who will actually check that customers are in possession of the return portion of a ticket when using the outward portion, although whether they're technically permitted to ask to see it I'm not really sure.

[Tim]

I forget where, but it is written down somewhere official - I've read it before. There are a few conductors and train managers who will actually check that customers are in possession of the return portion of a ticket when using the outward portion, although whether they're technically permitted to ask to see it I'm not really sure.

With the old open returns where Both portions were valid for a whole month, it was common to be asked for sight of the unused return when you presented an outward portion which was not on the first day of its validity.   If the return had been used then the outward portion was no longer valid (even if it had not been stamped)

I never considered the legal basis for such requests, but the TM^▸ (Train Manager, or Ticket Machine, or Temple Meads (Bristol), depending on context)'s intention was presumably to prevent a fruadster from reusing an unstamped ticket from an earlier journey.

[TerminalJunkie]

I forget where, but it is written down somewhere official - I've read it before. There are a few conductors and train managers who will actually check that customers are in possession of the return portion of a ticket when using the outward portion, although whether they're technically permitted to ask to see it I'm not really sure.

Yes, I know that - it's in the NCoC; it's the new assertion that the "...validity for the return portion will be the same as the outward..." that I'm questioning. After all, if they were the same, why does the Fares Manual say they're different?

[inspector_blakey]

I see your point, but if it's not legitimate to use the return portion before the outward portion, then self-evidently it's not permitted to use the return portion before 0930 on a B1-restricted ticket given that the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter, or Off Peak, depending on context) mentions a day return - were there a period return with a similar restriction then you could use whatever train you wanted to return on a different day, once the outward portion had been used. So although the restriction may say "by any train", in practice for a day return it's not since you can't use the return before the outward portion.

[TerminalJunkie]

But Condition C17 (see here) doesn't actually preclude the use of the return portion before you have used the outward; it just means that once the return portion has been used, the outward portion is no longer valid.

[super tm]

However it does not change the fact that the validity for the return portion will be the same as the outward. 

Really? Where does it say that, then?

It says outward journey after 0930 return journey any train.  When you make a return journey you must make the outward journey before the return so any return train will depart after 0930 !

[Brucey]

The main reason for asking was that for some tickets, Mixing Deck sites are actually saying that the return portion is valid before 0930.

Take London Terminals - Gatwick Airport.  Restriction B1 according to NRE^▸ (National Rail Enquiries) (I've finally worked out a way of obtaining the restriction code from their new website) yet Southern's website quotes this as being valid before 0930 on the return


Proceeding through the process, I even get a reservation (not a seat as SN don't do seat reservations) but I would get a reservation coupon.

[JayMac]

Hmm... interesting. Just tried a sample journey Bristol TM^▸ (Train Manager, or Ticket Machine, or Temple Meads (Bristol), depending on context)-Swindon, which also has B1 for an Off Peak Day Return, and was able to book a seat on the 0730 from Swindon.

Shouldn't be allowed, but a seat reservation and a valid travel itinerary.....

[RichardB]

I see your point, but if it's not legitimate to use the return portion before the outward portion, then self-evidently it's not permitted to use the return portion before 0930 on a B1-restricted ticket given that the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter, or Off Peak, depending on context) mentions a day return - were there a period return with a similar restriction then you could use whatever train you wanted to return on a different day, once the outward portion had been used. So although the restriction may say "by any train", in practice for a day return it's not since you can't use the return before the outward portion.

I agree with this.  B1 is a restriction only used on an Off Peak Day Return ticket.