From Markus Campbell-Savours MP (for Penrith and Solway) via Facebook


Hmm ... how are we doing in the South West these days?  Last train to Truro, to Carmarthen?

Last week, we missed the last train from Oviedo to El Ferrol - it set off on time at 14:28.  Yesterday we caught the last train from Entroncamento to Badajoz at 13:36, arriving at 17:26.

 
I think it could depend on the servicing of the trains,

the last Newcastle service COULD continue to Carlisle,

BUT I presume would have to go back to Newcastle for servicing.

Distance from Carlisle to Newcastle 60 miles(journey time approx one hour)

 

Interesting thoughts, as there was a proposal at one time to close the East Coast main line north of Newcastle with all traffic routed onward via Carlisle.

In current time, you have London to Newcastle electric but not onward to Carlisle, you have crew hours and route knowledge issues, as well as servicng and a question about who would pay for an extra service extension that late at night.

 
More logical to extend the 21:10 from Euston to Preston as far as Carlisle, arrival about 1 a.m.?

According to my journey planner, the 22:03 from KX to Newcastle gets there at 01:38 - say 02:50 to Carlisle if extended. 

 

Why?

Well, the population of Carlisle is 77,000.  Population of Newcastle and Gateshead is 380,000 with over a million in the wider Tyne & Wear area. 

The east coast route has Darlington and Durham as previous stops (adds another 150,000).  Oxenholme (including nearby Kendal) and Penrith on the West Coast only adds another 45,000.  Lancaster can be reached on the 20:30 with a change at Preston.

There could just about be a case for the 20:30 EUS-PRE to extend to Glasgow via Carlisle I guess, but surely nothing later than that would make sense.  And there's no point running something just to Carlisle as the stabling/maintenance points are at Glasgow and Manchester which is why the 20:30 and 21:10 from Euston only go to Preston.  The former runs empty to the depot in Manchester, the latter lays over at Preston for five hours before running empty to Lancaster to form the first London bound train next morning.  That makes sense because the crew depot is at Preston so the late shift immobilise the train and the early shift then mobilise it.

By contrast, the East Coast stabling point is actually in Newcastle.

 
So under GBR, it could mean that any TOC (as was) could use any existing stabling depot anywhere!?
Or too fanciful perhaps.

 

If it's purely for stabling, then potentially 'yes'.

But usually, cleaning, emptying of toilet tanks, 'fitness to run' certificates and light maintenance is involved as well.  That requires specific facilities and equipment for the type of train concerned.

And we should remember that even when GBR is up and running, the trains (initially at least) are all owned by ROSCO's and maintenance is often tied in with the manufacturer.

 
Another MP obsessed with trains between London and the constituency. Haven't they got the message that everything being London-centric is out of fashion? In the case of Carlisle a decent last train home from Newcastle is ironically probably more relevant for many purposes, though I see that is currently also rather early. Last train home from Manchester if he ever visits No. 10 North isn't significantly later than from London.

 

Last train Melksham to Carlisle 16:39, to Newcastle 18:53 (if you count an 01:35 arrival as 'same day') ... with 12 ticket journey sales year between Melksham and Carlisle, and 8 between Melksham and Newcastle, there's hardly a mass transit flow there that warrants timetable changes to suite!

 
Not totally sure this comes down to privatisation; I suspect the situation wasn't so different before! There is a later train to Carlisle at 23:50. But not useful for those who prefer to who want to go home and get some minimal sleep before the next day rather than sleep on the train, and the sleeper doesn't serve as many intermediate stations as a 'proper' last train would. Has the sleeper suppressed late evening options...?

I note that Plymouth's last non-sleeper train is similarly earlier than Swansea's, with similar running time (if we round liberally). One is offset by the sleeper while the other involves the political advantage of a capital city.

 
What about the 2115 and 2345?

 

2345 is a sleeper, I think the post referenced the "last non sleeper train"

Last non sleeper train to Plymouth during the week is the 2104 from Paddington.

 
Both those Sleeper trains from Euston allow seated passengers on Advance Purchase and regular tickets just like the rest of the day. Only differences are compulsory reservation if you are using a regular ticket, and no 2115 or 2345 on Saturdays.

 

Hence my comment "Last non sleeper train to Plymouth during the week is the 2104 from Paddington".

I was referring to Hafren's comment "I note that Plymouth's last non-sleeper train is similarly earlier than Swansea's, with similar running time (if we round liberally). One is offset by the sleeper while the other involves the political advantage of a capital city". which you challenged.

Possibly you're at cross purposes?

 

Recalling a conversation on the platform, I remembered being impressed that there was someone heading for... Accrington and now further impressed by the range of destinations people head to from... Melksham. 12 to Carlisle and 8 to Newcastle in a year and, hidden from view, an unknown number of people travelling on split tickets... it would be good to query the rail ticketing system for something like 'Annual journeys from Melksham that are over 'x' miles in length but exclude the top 5 destinations' - for a range of values of 'x' and then plot the result on a graph.

Mass transit is viewed by the likes of SWR-as-was as large passenger flows to a particular destination (and back: I should name-check Waterloo Sunset at this point..).

From the individual's perspective, mass transit enables the particular journey they need to make: if they travel by train they make that journey on a mass transit system. Those individual journeys that do not align with one of the big passenger flows, from the point of view of the railways, aren't the icing on the cake, they're very much part of the cake itself, simply because there are a lot of them and in terms of sustaining the system, they contribute.

Oh, hang on, here is such a graph, courtesy of guess what, so the first question has to be 'That's a suspiciously lovely curve, what is it showing and does this graph pass a sanity check?'



Lets run the plot again but include the top five destinations:



OK, the above not being the result of my work, I'm now going to sit down and reflect on what I am learning, not all of which concerns rail passenger figures...

 
That is absolutely fascinating ...

 
I am struggling with connectivity in the Boondocks of Spain today - so please excuse this being patchy.

Correct - we have to consider split tickets when traveling from [Melksham/anywhere].  And we also should remember onward journeys - for example Annan, Dumfries, Whitehaven ...

 

Indeed.  As is the 21:15...and that doesn't appear in journey planners and stops for 'staffing reasons' only according to RTT.