Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 14:55 03 May 2024
- Russian forces sharing base with US troops in Niger
- Train strikes: How May's disruption affects you
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 18/05/24 - BRTA Westbury
22/05/24 - WWRUG / TransWilts update
02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber

On this day
3rd May (2018)
~ Just one working lower quadrant distant signal left (link)

Train RunningCancelled
11:48 London Paddington to Carmarthen
14:45 Bristol Temple Meads to Westbury
16:19 Carmarthen to London Paddington
Short Run
10:59 Cardiff Central to Penzance
11:30 Cardiff Central to Portsmouth Harbour
13:15 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
13:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
14:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
15:23 Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff Central
15:59 Westbury to Gloucester
PollsThere are no open or recent polls
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
May 03, 2024, 15:02:05 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[252] Severn Tunnel emergency closure, 2nd May 2024.
[91] Vintage film - how valid are these issues today?
[46] underground plans for Bristol update.
[41] Reopening Cullompton and Wellington stations (merged topic)
[36] Brabazon, Bristol
[29] Train drivers "overwhelmingly white middle aged men"
 
News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
Author Topic: How NOT to run a railway......  (Read 6974 times)
devon_metro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5175



View Profile
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2010, 16:02:04 »

Here's another slant...

What if during the (unscheduled) station stop the doors fail, or any other disaster occurs, that results in the relief lines being blocked even longer and I suspect the signallers priority was to clear it.

Oh and for the record, it looks like signalling failure.
Logged
ChrisB
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 12368


View Profile Email
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2010, 16:03:12 »

I'm with Devon Metro on this....
Logged
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40856



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2010, 17:09:11 »

... what if during the station stop the doors fail ...

Err ... that's a risk for any station stop, isn't it?  If the problem was signalling failure and there was no suggestion what so ever of train malfunction, it seems odd not to let the doors be opened.  This wasn't a 142/143, you know  Wink

But - hey - hindsight is a marvellous thing; it's all very well to say "xxx should have been done" after the event.  I'll bet most of us have made snap decisions, and later realised that we could have elected to do something else that would have been prefereable if only we'd had the luxury of time to decide.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
devon_metro
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 5175



View Profile
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2010, 17:30:40 »

... what if during the station stop the doors fail ...

Err ... that's a risk for any station stop, isn't it?  If the problem was signalling failure and there was no suggestion what so ever of train malfunction, it seems odd not to let the doors be opened.  This wasn't a 142/143, you know  Wink

But - hey - hindsight is a marvellous thing; it's all very well to say "xxx should have been done" after the event.  I'll bet most of us have made snap decisions, and later realised that we could have elected to do something else that would have been prefereable if only we'd had the luxury of time to decide.

Was simply suggesting a scenario for the likely decision, what with the amount of paperwork to do the simplest tasks these days.

"What's that Sir, you wish to lean out of the window to open a door, i'm afraid I will have to conduct a risk assessment before I can allow that"
Logged
smithy
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 471


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2010, 18:01:43 »

could it have been as a result of the fatality at aldermaston this morning causing congestion/stock displacement.
not sure of the area/working in that area myself but i know a turbo was involved in the fatality.
Logged
Chris from Nailsea
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 17900


I am not railway staff


View Profile Email
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2010, 18:25:03 »

An initial report of the Aldermaston / Ufton Nervet incident this morning is posted at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4783.msg60422#msg60422
Logged

William Huskisson MP (Member of Parliament) was the first person to be killed by a train while crossing the tracks, in 1830.  Many more have died in the same way since then.  Don't take a chance: stop, look, listen.

"Level crossings are safe, unless they are used in an unsafe manner."  Discuss.
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10125


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2010, 21:18:48 »

Here's another slant...

What if during the (unscheduled) station stop the doors fail, or any other disaster occurs, that results in the relief lines being blocked even longer and I suspect the signallers priority was to clear it.

What if indeed - I suppose there might be a 0.00001% chance of that happening. Which is probably significantly less than the chances of an angry commuter assaulting the driver when told he couldn't get off and the net result would be an hours delay and a detour via Hayes.

Jane and her fellow commuters didn't do that of course, but at the same time they left the train at Ealing Broadway no doubt pretty pee'd off and thinking that the railway industry has once again shot itself in the foot.  The average passenger really must be bemused by some of the nonsense and red tape that stops basic common sense at nearly every turn.

However, given the circumstances as described this morning, I very much doubt there is a Driver Manager in the land who would question a drivers decision to open the doors in the situation described today after getting verbal permission from the Signaller.  In my time as a driver similar situations cropped up occasionally and I always got the backing of my line manager - they do realise that you're on your own dealing with a situation like that and support any sensible actions to help the situation.  That being said, I can't blame a driver for erring on the side of caution.

At the end of the day you're looking at the time to ask the question 15 seconds, time to make an announcement 30 seconds, time to look back and shut the doors when he's changed ends 15 seconds.

Like I said though, I have my suspicions that only part of the train was on a platform given the location of the stop signal 100 yards off the end of the platform.
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
inspector_blakey
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3574



View Profile
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2010, 21:46:44 »

No guard to assist him/her...

Wouldn't the driver technically be assisting the guard in that situation...?  Wink Or is the driver now in charge in such situations following the much-argued about rule book changes of a few years ago?
Logged
Mookiemoo
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3117


View Profile Email
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2010, 21:53:41 »

No guard to assist him/her...

Wouldn't the driver technically be assisting the guard in that situation...?  Wink Or is the driver now in charge in such situations following the much-argued about rule book changes of a few years ago?

Is this one of those rail industry masonic hand shake moments.

If there is NO guard and only a driver - surely thr can be no ambiguity - and if there is, then the rail industry should hang their head in shame
Logged

Ditched former sig - now I need to think of something amusing - brain hurts -I'll steal from the master himself - Einstein:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

"Gravitation is not responsible for people falling in love"
readytostart
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 607


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2010, 22:39:10 »

I'm with Chris B and the other Nay voters on this one, train is not scheduled to stop, Network Rail have not given permission for the stop to uplift or set down passengers and FGW (First Great Western) would strictly speaking not be insured for passengers joining or alighting at that station.

Now imagine driver opens doors, passenger slips and falls down the gap, who do you recon FGW will pin the blame on? The driver would probably be out the door and the next week commuters would moan that their train has been cancelled due to a lack of traincrew.

Even worse, a passenger tries to board after the driver has shut the doors and taken power and the passenger falls down the gap, with do despatch equipment to look at the driver would have no way of knowing.

The rule book is quite clear when it says:
If you are working a passenger or empty coaching stock train with
power-operated doors which is stopped at a platform it is not
booked to stop at, you must not release the doors.
Logged
Chris from Nailsea
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 17900


I am not railway staff


View Profile Email
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2010, 23:05:44 »

Thank you for that, readytostart.

I really don't like to be pedantic (honestly! Roll Eyes ), but it does help if someone can actually answer the question, "where does it say that?"

C.  Wink
Logged

William Huskisson MP (Member of Parliament) was the first person to be killed by a train while crossing the tracks, in 1830.  Many more have died in the same way since then.  Don't take a chance: stop, look, listen.

"Level crossings are safe, unless they are used in an unsafe manner."  Discuss.
Sprog
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 109


View Profile Email
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2010, 23:08:45 »

I'm with Chris B and the other Nay voters on this one, train is not scheduled to stop, Network Rail have not given permission for the stop to uplift or set down passengers and FGW (First Great Western) would strictly speaking not be insured for passengers joining or alighting at that station.

Now imagine driver opens doors, passenger slips and falls down the gap, who do you recon FGW will pin the blame on? The driver would probably be out the door and the next week commuters would moan that their train has been cancelled due to a lack of traincrew.

Even worse, a passenger tries to board after the driver has shut the doors and taken power and the passenger falls down the gap, with do despatch equipment to look at the driver would have no way of knowing.

The rule book is quite clear when it says:
If you are working a passenger or empty coaching stock train with
power-operated doors which is stopped at a platform it is not
booked to stop at, you must not release the doors.

Spot on.

Right way, Wrong way, Railway!  Wink
Logged
IndustryInsider
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 10125


View Profile
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2010, 23:25:33 »

I'm with Chris B and the other Nay voters on this one, train is not scheduled to stop, Network Rail have not given permission for the stop to uplift or set down passengers and FGW (First Great Western) would strictly speaking not be insured for passengers joining or alighting at that station.

Quote from: readytostart
Now imagine driver opens doors, passenger slips and falls down the gap, who do you recon FGW will pin the blame on? The driver would probably be out the door and the next week commuters would moan that their train has been cancelled due to a lack of traincrew.

For goodness sake people. This is a FGW train, at a FGW station platform that identical FGW trains stop at all day long. In the circumstances we have been discussing the driver has confirmed all of his train is on the platform, and Network Rail have agreed via the signaller for the driver to open the doors (nobody has suggested that they haven't in any post). To suggest that FGW would be any more liable to passenger slips and falls or that slips and falls are any more likely to happen than on any other train that is scheduled to stop there is silly.

To suggest that for some reason FGW would not be covered by insurance is frankly absurd. What happens when a train has to terminate as a failure? If we follow your line of thinking then if the train's not due to call at whatever station the passengers would just have to stay on board.

Quote from: readytostart
Even worse, a passenger tries to board after the driver has shut the doors and taken power and the passenger falls down the gap, with do despatch equipment to look at the driver would have no way of knowing.

As for dispatching the train with no DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) equipment, if we take the Oxford to Paddington route as an example what do you think happens in the up direction at Radley, Appleford, Cholsey, Pangbourne, Twyford, and Acton Main line?  There is NO DOO equipment provided at these stations.  Drivers dispatch themselves via the 'look back' method.  Once they have looked back, closed the doors, observed that all is clear then they depart. After they have taken power there is no requirement to continue to observe the train - funnily enough it's considered more important to observe the signals! 

That is exactly what would have happened at West Ealing had the driver opened the doors before departing in the opposite direction to normal.  Furthermore, what's to stop that scenario you've cooked up happening if the doors hadn't been opened at all anyway?

Quote from: readytostart
The rule book is quite clear when it says:
If you are working a passenger or empty coaching stock train with
power-operated doors which is stopped at a platform it is not
booked to stop at, you must not release the doors.

As for rule book quotes (which module did you get that from anyway - after a quick search I can't find it!), as is often the case, with the authority of the signaller - and in some cases the TOC (Train Operating Company)'s control -  you can pretty much do whatever you want to!
Logged

To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
Ollie
Data Manager
Hero Member
******
Posts: 2302


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2010, 01:04:54 »

For the record regarding the problem it appears there was some signalling problems at Acton.
Logged
inspector_blakey
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3574



View Profile
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2010, 03:11:43 »

Is this one of those rail industry masonic hand shake moments.

If there is NO guard and only a driver - surely thr can be no ambiguity - and if there is, then the rail industry should hang their head in shame

Not really, sorry, just wasn't making myself clear. Of course when there is no guard on a train it's all up to the driver. The old railway rule book, which had been in place since the dawn of time (and possibly longer) contained the magic phrase "The guard is in charge of the train", thus making him responsible for all such operational decisions. However, those words were taken out of the rule book a little while ago. I'm just curious to know whether or not the guard would be in charge of dealing with that situation now or the driver (on a service that is operated with a guard, of course).
Logged
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: 1 [2] 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page