Problems with Up Sleeper (14 Jul 13)

[whole diary]

[Rhydgaled]

re 319's

but nothing yet has been ordered?...

Wasn't Southern asked to order a batch of new EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) for temporary use on Thameslink due to the delay in getting the Desiro City order signed off? Not sure if any further announcements have been made regarding where they will go once the Desiro City units arrive, but GreatWestern Thames Valley services were one the roumors I think.

[anthony215]

Yes the class 387 fleet. I am not too sure whether these would be from Bombardier or Seimens.

The annoucement from Seimens that they can get the class 380's to do up to 118mph does give some suspicion with the GW^▸ (Great Western) emu fleet since it would mean the local services to Newbury and Bedwyn could be worked by the emu's on the fast lines slotting in nicely between the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) services.

Depending on the numbers perhaps some of the IEP units could be freed up allowing more services to be worked by pairs of units

[paul7575]

Yes the class 387 fleet. I am not too sure whether these would be from Bombardier or Seimens.

The 387 fleet order (for temporary use on Thameslink then cascade) has already been awarded to Bombardier, back in July.  It is expected to be 110 mph capable.

In the last few years SN have awarded three batches of new trains to Bombardier, basically as agents for DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).  This was the position at the time DfT announced it, I've separated the 3 orders and added comments:

In December 2011, Southern signed a deal worth ^188 million with Bombardier for 130 carriages following an extensive procurement process which will see the trains delivered in 2013.

[26 x 5 car 377/6 units for use on inner suburban routes following 10 car platform enabling work. a few are now in service.]

An option for a further 40 vehicles was confirmed in December 2012. They will enter service in the early part of 2014 on the South London network.

[8 x 5 car dual voltage 377/7 units, for use on the WLL and elsewhere, but specifically so as to allow 8 x 4 car dual voltage units to be used on the Thameslink route.  This also releases 8 x 319s for use in the north west.]

The company ran a second open competition in December 2012 for 116 carriages, with the option of a further 140 if further investment opportunities can be identified. Bombardier was announced as the preferred bidder earlier this year, with the contract being agreed this month. [ie July 2013]

[The 116 carriage part of this order is the 387s, (reported previously as 377/8s, but that turned out to be mistaken.]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/commuters-to-benefit-from-state-of-the-art-electric-trains

There is evidence that DfT are doing plenty of background moves aimed at cascading units off Thameslink.  The only thing they haven't come out and published is that XXX will be used on the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) to Newbury and Oxford etc...

However it now seems to me that what Siemens can do with the Desiro speed is only of academic interest here, especially if as expected the 387s do come to the GW^▸ (Great Western).

[4064ReadingAbbey]

I can't help feeling that there is something not quite right about the top speeds of the new-build suburban sets, regardless of who builds them.

It is often stated that one of the critical factors in line capacity on the Mains is the speed difference between the 125 mph HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and Class 180s on the one hand and the 90 mph Turbos on the other. Assuming a 110/115 mph top speed these new build emus will narrow the gap but the Hitachi SETs^▸ (Super Express Train (now IET)) (aka IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)) are specified for a future top speed of 140 mph.

So the speed gap will open up again and we will be back to where we are now - only just a bit faster! Could it be that, for reasons of track capacity, the effective top speed of the trains between Paddington and Reading and Didcot will remain at 125 mph?

[John R]

Apparently if the speed goes above 118mph (actually 190kph) then a much enhanced set of European guidelines will apply, so this is likely to be the limit of emu speed for non "intercity" services.  But you are correct, if and when IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) goes up to 140mph then the benefit will be diminished again. Though it's still better to have a differential from 140 to 115 than 140 to 100.