overcrowding! time to stop moaning about it.. and to bring health and safety!

[whole diary]

[plejaren]

hi im new here
one thing what disgusts me is also a big topic often discussed
overcrowding
i got a cross country to reading one sunday it had 3 or 4 carriages one first class and people were standing in the toilets yet they were STILL SHOVING PEOPLE ON!

why do we as british people come across so tame that the most we`ll do is write a column in a paper complaining? WHY CANT WE ACT
WHY CANT WE DEMAND HEALTH AND SAFETY TO INVESTIGATE
they have no problem sticking their noses in everything else.. so either they are getting a pay off by the train companies to keep their mouthes shut... or i dont know what!

at the end of the day how is it legal to shove people in conditions deemed unfit for animals!

people lets act now and demand these companies are heavily fined because we should not pay sky high prices just to be lucky get standing room in a toilet!

[Ollie]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-430760/Packed-trains-safer-crashes-claim-rail-chiefs.html

A report in 2007

[devon_metro]

In a crash you are less likely to sustain I injury in a crowd. The Kings Cross bomb on the tube shows this, some people within metres of the bomber led comparativly unscaved.

[johoare]

Welcome to the forum plejaren 

[plejaren]

yes but an article writen two years ago in an online paper does not help the fact that health and safety will investigate resturants on street corners right away
but if its something which affects the lives of millions of people paying millions ... they are in no hurry

[plejaren]

i dont get why british people lose all their values

any sense of standing up for themselves or their own interests, they are reluctant to do so

this is what made britain great in history... the `standing up and saying no i will not put up with this`

[Ollie]

The network is over crowded no denying that, maybe should just take a Eurostar approach and just book all seats, and once all seats booked that's it nobody else? But then you take away the idea of a turn up and go railway.

Just look at the peak from Paddington and use Reading as an example, despite the fact a train goes to Reading every 10mins or though, people just get next available, Reading is a station I personally use a lot, and I've watched trains arrive one after the other from Paddington and the amount of people the come off is immense.

I just don't see any quick fix to overcrowding, it's a problem that will continue for years yet.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Yes: unfortunately, unlike taxis, buses or aeroplanes, there are no specific limits on the number of passengers that can be allowed onto a train.  The price we have to pay for the flexibility of 'walk up' train services is indeed, rather too often, overcrowding.

On the other hand, rail travel is a darn'd sight safer than road travel, just for example, if comparing casualties per year?

Chris 

[grahame]

Hi, Plejaren, and welcome to the forum.

I have to agree that the common answer is that health and safety doesn't lay specific limits down, but you WILL find that the train crew exercise their own discression and will refuse boarding after a certain point.   It is, though "health and SAFETY" rather than "health and COMFORT" and where you have a service that's overloaded, anyone can choose not to travel if they wish but rather wait for the next train.

Having got the official line out of the way, and offered an olive branch of sympathy to the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) who cannot know (but only forecast) the number of passengers for any particular service, I'm going to say that this forum was formed in protest and indeed it continues to be a forum that both informs and provides a place where protest can be stated.    At the same time remembering that the changes that protest seeks must be practical ones, and if we press our point to the stage where there is action taken, we need to continue to work with some of the parties we protest against as they implement the changes - so we should stay on good terms.

If you were travelling Cross Country to Reading, that would have been from / via Southampton or Birmingham - so you may not be familiar with Cardiff - Portsmouth, nor with the Great Western Sleeper from Paddington to Plymouth and Penzance.   They are both examples of how protest has had an effect, although you're also likely to find the powers that be claiming that they made enlightened decisions and it wasn't the protests.

In the case of Cardiff - Portsmouth, 3 car trains were cut back to 2 cars when FGW^▸ (First Great Western) took over. Overcrowding was rife, and protests abounded.  A number of groups, the press, etc protested and after a time plans were changed an an extra carriage was added on.   I travelled on the line last Friday, a 3 car train NESTing (nearly every seat taken) and it would have been very uncomfortable as a 2 coach train.

The sleeper service was for the axe.  Ah - but the axe never fell; there are now 2 sets of sleeper coaches and 4 locomotives responsible for maintaining the service and all the extra publicity brought a real boost to the service use too.

Overcrowding on Cross Country is / has been noted.  Not my area of expertise, but some extra 125 units have been put on their lines to relieve some of it, and train formations are selected to have the longest trains on the busiest "diagrams".  But on the other hand, franchise bidders are encouraged to do the job with a minimum of stock which leaves little / no extra flexibility at times of unusual busyness.   Gone is the MO (Monday Only) train from Cardiff to Westbury, with the coaches sitting in the siding until the form the FO (Friday Only) service back again. Ironically, health and safety has made trains so much more expensive in the first place that they are now just too expensive for the luxury of having them around to run just at peak times of the week. (The financial arrangement of leasing rolling stock has compounded it - another story).

So - go ahead and protest.  I certainly do.  But look to the long term goal, and protest for something realistic.  "They" will certainly take a while to pick up on a new campaign ... "they" will hope that it will go away ... then "they" look for any holes in the campaign, like "expensive", "impractical", "unproven", "causes other problems", "minority cause" ... then "they" try to say "not my problem, ask someone else" and "we can't do that - it would set a precedent".  But I'm an optimist - I have seen it done, and even by the British in that most Conservative part of the country - the South West!

[paul7575]

I think it is a legitimate aspiration for there to be no standing passengers on true long distance services, but the problem with some recent media campaigns (such as the Evening Standard's) is that you cannot run a short distance commuter service on a no standing basis, and you certainly couldn't run the London Underground as a no standing service, as you'd need about 90 tph through the tunnels!  LU style layouts with the majority of capacity as standees are also coming into use on inner suburban trains, such as the LO 378s, with their fully longitudinal seating. I can see them being the choice on further metro type services as well, such as the Merseyrail new fleet in a few years time. 

So if inner suburban Metros and LU have mostly standing by design, and long distance are fully seated, what the heck do you do with the intermediate level services, such as XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) - always full of midlands commuters.  Or what about the long distance service where the first stop is a major commuter destination?

You can apply pick up or set down restrictions. This is done on most WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) services that stop at Milton Keynes in the peaks for instance. In the future, maybe Crossrail use by commuters could be forced by making Reading a pick up only stop in the peak down direction, and set down only in the peak up direction.  Would the majority of pax be happy with this - eg you can't stand on the HST^▸ (High Speed Train), but you can definitely stand on Crossrail, and LU when you eventually change?

It's a nightmare - but one thing is for sure, Health and Safety are always going to allow at least some standing on trains IMO^▸ (in my opinion). Reducing it to comfortable levels is the best you can hope for, unless ALL trains become subject to compulsory reservations, or perhaps they only allow the correct number of pax to board at the departure terminus - imagine the chaos at the barriers though when they shut showing 'all seats taken'! 

Can't see the general public accepting that for their daily travel to and from work...

Paul

[Btline]

imagine the chaos at the barriers though when they shut showing 'all seats taken'!

Can't see the general public accepting that for their daily travel to and from work...

Have a look at Part 5 of this video from Network South East, set at Charing Cross in the early 90s before the automatic ticket barriers were installed.

At this time, there were platform gates which staff closed when the train was full. I wonder what they do now?

Fast forward to 5 mins 30 seconds. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkaINEKwW2Y&feature=response_watch

Look at those crowds! And yet it seems like Kent commuters put up with it in the 90s...

PS: Listen to that woman at 6 mins 8 seconds who shouts "open that side gate for God's sake!" It looks like chaos.

Health & Safety? Ha - what can they do?

[devon_metro]

i dont get why british people lose all their values

any sense of standing up for themselves or their own interests, they are reluctant to do so

this is what made britain great in history... the `standing up and saying no i will not put up with this`

You mention Britain is no longer great. (which I agree)

However, isn't it health and safety that has degraded our society (at its core!) so you are suggesting using h&s... 

[vacman]

It's a debate that there is no simple answer to really, I remember one woman saying to me a couple of years ago at a major event when she had come of the train "That train was dangerously overcrowded before it even arrived into Teignmouth, my children could have been crushed", my answer to her was "If you thought that before you got on the train then why did YOU put your children in a position of danger by boarding the train?" she didn't have an answer, and that is it really, if the train is crammed you have a choice to get on and suffer it or wait for the next train, not always possible where infrequent services run but you still have the choice! i'm sure if all services were compulsory reserve like many European countries then there would be uproar then aswell! XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) are one TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) that really does need to sort things out though, 3 std class coaches on most of their trains is unacceptable, particularly when running commuter services in and out of Britains second city!

[Btline]

I don't understand why british people lose all their values.
Any sense of standing up for themselves or their own interests, they are reluctant to do so.
This is what made britain great in history... the `standing up and saying no i will not put up with this`

You mention Britain is no longer great. (which I agree)

However, isn't it health and safety that has degraded our society (at its core!) so you are suggesting using h&s... 

I agree and disagree.

Britain is still great! I would not want to live anywhere else!

But H&S^▸ (Health and Safety) is degrading our country fast. It, along with political correctness/EU^» (European Union - about) regulations threatens to destroy our country and way of life.

[stebbo]

Indeed Britain could still be Great. It's not just Health & Safety, Human Rights but common sense. Read on:

"Common Sense

Today, we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his birth
records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will
be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:

   Knowing when to come in out of the rain;             
   Why the early bird gets the worm;
Life isn't always fair;
   and maybe it was my fault.

Common Sense, lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in charge).

His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired
for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children. It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer sun lotion or an Aspirin to a student; but could not inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion!!!!!?

Common Sense lost the will to live as the churches became businesses; and criminals received better treatment than their victims.

Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.

Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death, by his parents, Truth and Trust.  His wife, Discretion.  His daughter, Responsibility. His son, Reason.

He is survived by his 4 stepbrothers;

   I Know My Rights
   I Want It Now
   Someone Else Is To Blame
   I'm A Victim

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing."