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Author Topic: Trainspotters "banned" following vandalism at Cheltenham Spa railway station  (Read 32295 times)
thetrout
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« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2014, 16:02:45 »

So how do the private security 'officers' that staff major InterCity stations fit into this? Are they authorised to act as an "Authorised Person" under Byelaws and NRCoC (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) for all TOCs (Train Operating Company) etc?

Reason I ask this is for the reason that you cannot be Penalty Fared by London Midland staff at London Euston if you've used a Virgin Trains service. Does the same apply here in respect of the byelaws? i.e. GreaterAnglia private security yet using a London Overground section of a station?

Finally, Rail Replacement Bus Services............ Presumably the Bus/Coach Driver is an "Authorised Person" and if you "disobey" the request you could find yourself in trouble?
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Grin Grin Grin Grin
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« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2014, 02:19:24 »

So how do the private security 'officers' that staff major InterCity stations fit into this? Are they authorised to act as an "Authorised Person" under Byelaws and NRCoC (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) for all TOCs (Train Operating Company) etc?
They can indeed be authorised by an Operator to enforce the Byelaws. (NRCoC is irrelevant by the way.)

Quote
Reason I ask this is for the reason that you cannot be Penalty Fared by London Midland staff at London Euston if you've used a Virgin Trains service. Does the same apply here in respect of the byelaws? i.e. GreaterAnglia private security yet using a London Overground section of a station?
Take Euston for example. The moment you step off a London Overground train and on to a platform you are covered by the National Rail Byelaws. That's because it isn't a TfL» (Transport for London - about) premises. The Underground on the other hand, is. I believe that Network Rail security work for STM. STM are also a contractor for London Overground security, you may find that in some instances a company may be authorised to enforce both sets of Byelaws.

The National Rail Byelaws and Transport for London Byelaws are broadly similar anyway, except that the TfL ones have more explicit references about alcohol possession and the TfL Byelaws can additionally be enforced by Home Office PSCOs.

Say for example, at Birmingham New Street, a London Midland member of staff could enforce a Byelaw on an ATW (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC)) train, a Virgin member of staff could enforce a Byelaw on a CrossCountry train and so on without any issue as they all come under the same National Rail Byelaw umbrella.

Quote
Finally, Rail Replacement Bus Services............ Presumably the Bus/Coach Driver is an "Authorised Person" and if you "disobey" the request you could find yourself in trouble?
The Byelaws do not apply to rail replacement bus services.

That's because a bus isn't a "railway asset". This is defined as:

(a) train;
(b) network;
(c) station;
(d) light maintenance depot;
 
and any associated track, buildings and equipment;

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Southern Stag
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« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2014, 17:07:49 »

Take Euston for example. The moment you step off a London Overground train and on to a platform you are covered by the National Rail Byelaws. That's because it isn't a TfL» (Transport for London - about) premises. The Underground on the other hand, is. I believe that Network Rail security work for STM. STM are also a contractor for London Overground security, you may find that in some instances a company may be authorised to enforce both sets of Byelaws.
Despite what London Overground and TfL might say, London Overground is still a National Rail TOC (Train Operating Company) and as AFAIK (as far as I know) the standard Railway Byelaws still apply. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage certainly still apply despite London Overground at times insisting that they don't.
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« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2014, 22:13:27 »

Before any more nonsense is written about the Byelaws, the National Rail Byelaws (which apply to all TOCs (Train Operating Company) except London Overground) can be viewed here.

Nit picking here, but miseryrail have had the Railway Byelaws Amendment Order 2013 made and as such they are not part of the national rail byelaws. However they are in essence the same with an amendment to byelaw 4 which bans booze.

I think that when DaFT» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about) made LOoROL a TfL» (Transport for London - about) concession the byelaws changed to be covered by the GLA Act. They are indeed much the same.
The TfL Act also allowed the mayor of london powers over LOoROL hence why the PF (Penalty Fare) is higher on LO despite it being a National Rail service.

I am still of the belief however that if a MoP/lawyer challenged the enforcement of the Byelaws by a PCSO, they would win as the authorisation isn't in a public place and the byelaws explicitly state "A constable". It also surprises me that the DaFT haven't amended the byelaws to add "A Constable or PCSO...." or maybe because there is indeed a reason why they've not been amended.
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« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2014, 23:01:21 »

Merseyrail's ban on alcohol very nearly caught me out the other day. Fortunately I saw the very small sign before I'd popped open an ale.

They also use byelaws 6(4) and 6(8 )  for 'feet on seats' offences! And I've heard they are pretty ruthless in enforcing the no feet on seats rule.
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"Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for the rest of the day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

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« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2014, 23:13:34 »


Despite what London Overground and TfL» (Transport for London - about) might say, London Overground is still a National Rail TOC (Train Operating Company) and as AFAIK (as far as I know) the standard Railway Byelaws still apply. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage certainly still apply despite London Overground at times insisting that they don't.
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Philip Hammond MP (Member of Parliament), Secretary of State for Transport confirmed the change to the TfL Byelaws and extension to cover London Overground effective 5th October 2011.

Here's a link to the amendment.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 23:22:13 by Network SouthEast » Logged
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« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2014, 23:20:18 »

I am still of the belief however that if a MoP/lawyer challenged the enforcement of the Byelaws by a PCSO, they would win as the authorisation isn't in a public place and the byelaws explicitly state "A constable". It also surprises me that the DaFT» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about) haven't amended the byelaws to add "A Constable or PCSO...." or maybe because there is indeed a reason why they've not been amended.
Yes because as I have said BTP (British Transport Police) PSCOs have been made Authorised Persons by all operators.
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JayMac
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« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2014, 23:25:58 »

An interesting one from the TfL» (Transport for London - about) Byelaws. Person must stand on the right on escalators unless walking up, down or along them.

I never knew that not standing on the right was an offence.
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2014, 23:32:22 »

Bob Crow for one would never have stood for that.  Tongue
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LiskeardRich
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« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2014, 23:32:43 »

I am still of the belief however that if a MoP/lawyer challenged the enforcement of the Byelaws by a PCSO, they would win as the authorisation isn't in a public place and the byelaws explicitly state "A constable". It also surprises me that the DaFT» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about) haven't amended the byelaws to add "A Constable or PCSO...." or maybe because there is indeed a reason why they've not been amended.
Yes because as I have said BTP (British Transport Police) PSCOs have been made Authorised Persons by all operators.

I dispute this on the basis of an incident I witnessed fairly recently where a BTP PCSO called through for an approved person to assist with dealing an incident. After the incident defused I heard the PCSO thanking the authorised person as he insufficient authority to deal with the matter. The staff who came over escorted the perpetrator off of the station platform.
In can therefore conclude beyond reasonable doubt that in the incident I witnessed the PCSO did not have appropriate authority, or most certainly didn't use it if he had it.
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« Reply #70 on: March 25, 2014, 23:44:08 »

I am still of the belief however that if a MoP/lawyer challenged the enforcement of the Byelaws by a PCSO, they would win as the authorisation isn't in a public place and the byelaws explicitly state "A constable". It also surprises me that the DaFT» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about) haven't amended the byelaws to add "A Constable or PCSO...." or maybe because there is indeed a reason why they've not been amended.
Yes because as I have said BTP (British Transport Police) PSCOs have been made Authorised Persons by all operators.

For the sake of preventing a flame war, we are going to have to agree to disagree that PCSOs are authorised persons. However I am going to do look for some clarification on this area.
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JayMac
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« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2014, 23:49:23 »

I'm meeting a BTP (British Transport Police) PCSO next week.

I'll ask him.  Wink
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« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2014, 23:49:31 »

BTP (British Transport Police)'s website also specifically mentions PSCOs enforcing Byelaws, with a link to them.
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« Reply #73 on: March 26, 2014, 00:07:24 »

NSE (Network South East) Ive done a little googling and come up with this.
You are in a sense right, however its not the TOCs (Train Operating Company) that have authorised BTP (British Transport Police), its the law that has.

The Police Reform Act as amended by SOCPA made PCSOs have some powers in regards to byelaw offences.
Have a read of http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/30/schedule/4 and get confused even more.

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« Reply #74 on: March 26, 2014, 00:23:15 »

Quote
The relevance of Police Reform Act (as amended by SOCPA'05) is that it creates a power to enforce byelaws for PCSOs. This means that, subject to Chief Con and relevant Law Making Body (Council, TfL» (Transport for London - about), etc) agreement, a suitably designated PCSO may require the name and address for a breach and creates a power of detention where no details/false details are given.

Quote
PCSOs have the power to detain someone if the person has
committed an offence involving harassment, alarm or distress, loss or
damage to property, or is acting in an anti-social manner and the person
refuses to provide their name or address or these details are believed to
be false. They may also issue penalty notices for certain offences and
carry out searches where they have reasonable grounds that a young person
has alcohol or tobacco on them and will not surrender these. They may
search detained people for dangerous instruments or items that could be
used to assist an escape. PCSOs also have the power to seize controlled
drugs. They have certain powers of entry to premises to save life and limb
and limited power to enter licensed premises.
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