Taunton to Romsey and return

[whole diary]

[swrural]

Thanks for all that BNM - very much, - but was I right in understanding the option you found for Wilf? (40 -32.50 is 7.50 extra but more convenient?  That was my question.

Thanks for the link SS (ooh, I think I'll stick to the full out version    ).

[Wilf19]

Ticket to Romsey bought this evening at Taunton station. I thought I'd first try the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) to see what that came up with, and yes, the ^40 Southamption fare was there but it only said via Salisbury, so being an un-trusting sole when it comes to technology I queued up at the ticket counter to make sure. I explained the tale and the very helpful person did a bit of digging around on his computer he decided that the standard ^32.50 fare from Taunton to Romsey would be OK. He then went to the trouble of printing off loads of 'stuff' which he said I could use as proof if anyone questioned it.

It will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow!

[JayMac]

Er... that's all well and good getting 'loads and loads of stuff' from the booking clerk, but does one bit of it include a statement that it's okay to travel via Bristol? With the ticket office stamp on it? I don't foresee problems as on-train staff are likely to be as clueless about the Permitted Routes as this booking clerk appeared to be. If they've just given you a printed itinerary showing you what trains to catch for travelling via Bristol, this might not be enough. Booking office systems will give itineraries for all sorts of journeys. I could ask for and get printed an itinerary for Bristol to Oxford via Worcester. That wouldn't mean the accompanying Bristol-Oxford ticket was valid for that route.

I did explain that the Taunton-Southampton (Route:Salisbury) fare was valid via Bristol. Whether you go via Castle Cary or Bristol you will be passing through Salisbury thus satisfying the route restriction printed on the ticket.

Good luck and I really hope you don't encounter an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) or clued up guard/TM^‡(resolve) when you go off route with Taunton-Romsey ticket. Unless you have clear unambiguous authority to travel off route, you could be liable for an excess fare. And it's unlikely that excess will be up to the Taunton-Southampton fare. It'll likely be a fare or combination of fares from the point where you go off route. So that could be an Anytime Day Single from Westbury to Bristol and an Anytime Day Single from Bristol to Taunton. On top of what you've already paid.

If you haven't got clear, unambiguous authority to travel off-route then I suggest that you bring this to the attention of the booking office at Taunton tomorrow morning, before boarding your first train.

As I said, it's unlikely that you'll face any problems, but there is a small chance that you could be caught travelling on an invalid ticket. Do bear that in mind.

[TerminalJunkie]

First, an advertised through train is always on a Permitted Route, no matter what route it takes.

<cough>Fife Circle</cough>.

[Wilf19]

I did try to explain to the ticket office person at Taunton that I didn't think the ^32.50 ticket would do the job, but he was  insistent it would be OK. I didn't want to tell him his job as it's certainly not my area of knowledge or expertise! Dodgy computer systems maybe but not routing rules. He printed off all details on an FGW^▸ (First Great Western) stamped paper with all sorts of reference numbers on it, so we'll see what happens on the way home this afternoon. I'm fully expecting that there could be a debate about this, easier to argue on the FGW train between Westbury and Temple Meads, I can see it being more tricky on the CrossCountry service from Temple Meads to Taunton.

We'll see what this afternoon brings.

[swrural]

We are all with you Wilf19 and best of luck. 

Er, and the answer to my question BNM please?......

[JayMac]

The question about what I suggested being more convenient for Wilf19?

Not convenient. Valid. The Taunton-Romsey ticket isn't valid via Bristol. The Taunton-Southampton ticket is.

[swrural]

I think I've got the picture now but surely your suggestion to Wilf19 was both convenient and valid?  I understood it that Wilf9 could buy a ticket for ^40 which would entitle him, without quibble, to travel via Bristol, which he had discovered for the return trip was more convenient (i.e. he got home quicker and did not, in his own words, have to wait around in the cold for an hour at Westbury').

So my question was whether by paying ^7.50 extra, he could achieve this, given that you are convinced that ^32.50 only entitles him to travel via Westbury in this case and not via Bristol? 

[JayMac]

Correct. 

[Wilf19]

Well I made it home without having to pay anything above the ^32.50 normal fare. The ticket inspector on the Romsey - Temple Meads leg did query it and I produced the printoff of the routing I had provided by Taunton station and she accepted it without debate. I didn't get ticket checked on the CrossCountry leg to Taunton, I have a feeling things may have got more interesting if I had.

That's the first time in about 15 years of doing that route now and again that I have had to route back via Bristol, in the past when the timetable has come up with that routing as the only option I've given up the unequal struggle and driven. These days driving is my absolute last resort as it's an awful journey and my employer is quite enthusiastic about us using public transport where possible. Might have something to do with be able to 'work' on the train whilst using a laptop and driving probably isn't a good idea.

Thanks for all the help and advice with this especially bignosemac, if there is a next time I'll just by the Southampton ticket and be done with it.

Off to book a much simpler trip to Heathrow for Sunday afternoon.

[swrural]

Looks like BNM (whom I have thanked) is right.  Hopefully a FGW^▸ (First Great Western) person will put Taunton booking office right.  It's not good, is it, that pax should be put into worrying the whole journey whether they have a valid ticket.  There are enough other angst-ish  factors in travelling by PT as it is.

[Trowres]

Until several years ago, Bristol was one of the permitted routes from Westbury (and nearby stations) to Taunton.

It disappeared as a permitted route without any publicity. Does anyone have an old copy of the routeing guide to prove that Bristol was permitted at the beginning of the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) franchise?

Strangely, a ghost of the previous position still exists: there are still Westbury-Taunton fares "Any permitted" and "not Bristol".

[inspector_blakey]

First, an advertised through train is always on a Permitted Route, no matter what route it takes.

<cough>Fife Circle</cough>.

Are you sure those are advertised through trains though...? The Hounslow and Kingston loops out of Waterloo mean that, if you really wanted to, you could travel on a through train from, say, Waterloo to Earlsfield on an exceedingly circuitous route via Twickenham, Strawberry Hill and Kingston. However, I would argue that this is not an advertised through train as the train is not advertised from Waterloo at calling at Earlsfield, but as a service for Strawberry Hill, to avoid anyone making that mistake.

As I said, it's unlikely that you'll face any problems, but there is a small chance that you could be caught travelling on an invalid ticket. Do bear that in mind.

I think, were this to have happened, there would have been a strong defence under Byelaw 18(3)(iii): that an authorized person gave permission to travel without a valid ticket, bearing in mind that the booking clerk is an authorized person under the byelaws (as are almost all railway staff on duty) and there was written evidence of their permission to use the ticket via that route.

[JayMac]

Until several years ago, Bristol was one of the permitted routes from Westbury (and nearby stations) to Taunton.

It disappeared as a permitted route without any publicity. Does anyone have an old copy of the routeing guide to prove that Bristol was permitted at the beginning of the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) franchise?

Strangely, a ghost of the previous position still exists: there are still Westbury-Taunton fares "Any permitted" and "not Bristol".

I don't know when the routeing was changed for Westbury <->Taunton but I suspect the fares remain because one of them is an old Saver (now Off Peak Return), protected at the time of privatisation. Going back a decade or more there's also the possibility that the service between WSB^» (Westbury - next trains) and TAU^» (Taunton - next trains) was even more sparse than it is today, so via Bristol was a reasonable alternative. On that point I'm speculating. Others may know what the timetable was in the past.

Despite all that it is of course perfectly valid to buy Taunton <-> Bristol walk-up fares and use them to travel Taunton <-> Westbury. Cheaper too!

Taunton <-> Bristol via Westbury remains a permitted route, there are no negative easements and starting/ending short is allowed on all walk-up ticket types.

I think, were this to have happened, there would have been a strong defence under Byelaw 18(3)(iii): that an authorized person gave permission to travel without a valid ticket, bearing in mind that the booking clerk is an authorized person under the byelaws (as are almost all railway staff on duty) and there was written evidence of their permission to use the ticket via that route.

No doubt. It was for that reason that I made the point that the authority should be clear and unambiguous and with the station stamp. Particularly if you are going to be dealing with more than one TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) on your journey as well as possibly revenue staff at interchange stations. "The man at the station said" or a random printout may not cut much ice with a world weary Train Manager or RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) on a gateline block who have heard all the excuses under the sun. Wilf19's route would most likely have passed the old 'Any Reasonable Route' test, but these days it is better, when doing something a little out of the ordinary, to ensure you are armed with all the evidence. Ultimately, if a clerk has said it's okay you are afforded protection under the Byelaws, but it can be a painful experience fighting your corner if you are without proof of that permission.

[Southern Stag]

Are you sure those are advertised through trains though...? The Hounslow and Kingston loops out of Waterloo mean that, if you really wanted to, you could travel on a through train from, say, Waterloo to Earlsfield on an exceedingly circuitous route via Twickenham, Strawberry Hill and Kingston. However, I would argue that this is not an advertised through train as the train is not advertised from Waterloo at calling at Earlsfield, but as a service for Strawberry Hill, to avoid anyone making that mistake.

I can still get a booking engine to give me it as an option though, put in London Waterloo-Earlsfield via Strawberry Hill on a service with no changes and it will route you on a train advertised as a through service operating via the loop.