Maidenhead passengers overcharged for First Class upgrade (merged discussion)

[whole diary]

[johoare]

I've certainly had refunds on my FC^‡(resolve) season ticket for the days it was totally unusable. Definitely worth asking...Mind you with the absolute total lack of ticket checking this year so far (on the trains I have been on that don't already have train managers.. so quite a lot) it's becoming a bit of a joke

[EBrown]

Let's try and keep things civilized shall we, EBrown? No need to take that tone at all. Clearly Passenger Focus thought there was some merit in the argument, or they wouldn't have taken on the case. Are you accusing them of "stirring" as well?

For what it's worth, I work in the industry (not for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) though) and was convinced before I went back to check the CoC^▸ (Chamber of Commerce TBA) that there *were* arrangements in there to compensate passengers with FC^‡(resolve) tickets who had to use SC.

The argument is civilised. Where have I not been polite? Sorry, but CoC, Byelaws and PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) Regulations & Rules are my 'home turf' so a curt answer can be expected, if anyone has an issue with what I post, drop me a DM and I'll see if I can change it.

The CoC are clear there is no 'interpretation issues here, the current version (May 12) and the previous version do not say that "When first class is full you can have a refund". I suspect passenger focus are more interested in the application only to 'Turbo' services. First haven't given the evidence I have infront of me - done anything wrong (except misinformed the customer), as such Pax Focus will no doubt side with them.

Nick, the Conditions of Carriage are enforced by a variety of different people, generally it will be enforced (in different ways) at several points on your journey. (When you buy a ticket, when you put your ticket in the gateline, when your ticket is inspected etc)

[inspector_blakey]

My issue is with your use of language. Neither "suck it up" nor "you're wrongly stirring" are an especially polite way of making your point. All these ins and outs may well be your "home turf" but they're not everyone else's.

Accusing another poster of stirring when they have made a complaint to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) in good faith, a complaint which Passenger Focus considered had sufficient merit that they were prepared to take it up on his behalf, is unnecessarily hostile. Please desist from such blunt, unfounded accusations in future. I hope you are prepared to take that judgement, from me in my capacity as a moderator, with good grace.

[EBrown]

My issue is with your use of language.

Noted.

I'll send you a message later, and perhaps you'll consider being more courteous and sending me a message in future so I can remedy anything you have issue with quicker and without the need for public bickering.

[grahame]

This is a public readable board, and comments posted here and their responses can be read by anyone.  Some general thoughts and observations.

* It's very easy to come across as brusque when that's not intended, especially when replying to / answering a specific post.  We tend to think as we write such answers of the person who we're answering, of whom we may have quite a long knowledge / experience but in fact we're going to be read by hundreds.

* Having posted in public, the natural response is also in public.   It allows the complete audience group to continue to be involved in the ongoing discussion, and it saves on multiple responses of the same sort via personal message, post reports, emails, etc. which would only reach a tiny part of the ongoing audience group.

* It's possible for people to ask for notifications to be sent to them by email when a thread to which they started / contributed has received a further post, and that lets them get back onto the issue quickly without having to keep coming back just in case more has been contributed.  It is, though, courteous for someone making a strong post in response to another member to send them a personal message to alert them, and perhaps to add more personal background if they wish.  In the normal turn of events, it could be considered hypocritical to post in public, yet have responses sent back to you in private;  if you start something in public ...

* Things get brought to the attention of the moderator / admin team in which they haven't been involved - things that clearly cause enough concern to at least one member of the audience groups for that person to write.  Sometimes the only follow up will be to write back to the person who raised the question and explain something / why / wherefore.  But many times it will be to bring the matter to the attention of the poster who wrote what's been brought up ... and the audience group too may well need to know.  So very often, the action will be a public one, perhaps backed up by personal message.   To respond only in private leaves the concerning thread uncommented to the rest of the audience group - ripe for an avalanche of complaints, and misleading the majority of the audience group into thinking that the post about which the moderators have been contacted is uncontroversial.  On some occasions, the only public response may be to lock the thread and add a brief comment that it's being considered / worked on.  And occasionally, especially where it's the moderators who have picked up a possible issue, it might be done by p.m. only; this runs the risk of a mushrooming workload for the moderators / admins though, as others may pick up and be asking too, and our volunteer's time is limited! Posters should in general be aware that posts they make on public boards will generate responses, including those they may not have intended or anticipated, also in public.

A lot of general comments there. Probably an unfairly long response from me to a little incident, but good documentation that I can add to my FAQ^▸ (Frequently Asked Questions) store. 

Edit - slight reformat - G

[johoare]

Well done NickB.. The/your article on this has made page 7 of the Maidenhead Advertiser this week so hopefully other people affected will see it and go and ask for their refunds too..

[gpn01]

Interesting news item in the Maidenhead Advertiser last week about FGW^▸ (First Great Western) overcharging First Class passengers from Maidenhead:

http://www.maidenhead-advertiser.co.uk/News/Areas/Maidenhead/Commuter-issues-season-ticket-warning-after-being-overcharged-30012013.htm

Apparently, even though they know they did it, they're refusing to refund passengers unless they specifically demand a refund!

[NickB]

Indeed this is true - for I am the very same passenger who found the problem and raised it to FGW^▸ (First Great Western).  (see thread in Fare's Fair section)

When the error was admitted I asked what kind of restorative action FGW were going to take.  They said none, so I took it to the paper.  Not porud, not pretty, but what else could be done?

This affects all First class eatbound tickets issued from Twyford, Maidenhead, and all branch lines for at least the past 2 years.  If you go on the website the incorrect prices are still there.

[gpn01]

Well done Nick!.

Does you know what the "correct" fair is, or where to find or calculate it?

[IndustryInsider]

I think you did exactly the right thing.  I'm never one who usually advocates a trip to the local press, but if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) were not willing to contact those people who are affected directly then this will highlight them of the problem and they can go and sort it out.  I'm sure that is was a administrative error, rather than any sleight of hand, but I'm a little surprised FGW aren't making the effort to contact those concerned themselves on a positive customer service level - after all, we're not talking about thousands of people here.

[NickB]

Well done Nick!.
Does you know what the "correct" fair is, or where to find or calculate it?

Thanks - I appreciate the support.  I wasn't sure how this would be received, but to be clear my motive was not a witchhunt against FGW^▸ (First Great Western) but just to inform other passengers of an acknowledged issue.

Incidentally gpn01, I see that you are a fellow 07.08 traveller - I'd be happy to say hello and chat about this if you wanted to(?)

So the 'formula' for working out the correct price is as follows:
- Work out the difference in price between a 1st Class Eastbound to Paddington, and a 1st Class Eastbound with z1-6 Tube (should be ^3496-^2756 = ^740).
- Work out the difference in price between a Standard Class to Paddington, and a Standard Class with z1-6 Tube (should be ^4368-^3444 = ^924).
- The overcharge is ^924-^740 = ^184.

The same applies for Twyford and branch line tickets, and both 2012 and 2013 prices. 

[Western Enterprise]

Another 'Well Done' Nick,
I read your bit on the letters page of the Maidenhead Advertiser and thought - crikey he's done well to spot that!
I guess another dent in First's profits.....

[thetrout]

Well done Nick from me too

That's not how the conditions of carriage read at all. A 1ST class ticket doesn't guarantee a seat, so you have to suck it up and stand in the first class section.

Interesting, Is this only for season tickets? I've had a few refunds of the difference between 1ST and STD where I've purchased a First Class Walk Up ticket and then not been able to get a seat in First Class, so had to sit in Standard instead. Also had them when TM^‡(resolve)'s have Declassified First Class.

All occasions this has happened I have been refunded the difference between First and Standard Class Fares, One occasion the whole ticket and a bit more as I boarded the train which by the time I got to Reading was over 2 hours.

So am I to assume EBrown you're referring to season tickets under the CoC^▸ (Chamber of Commerce TBA). As I am reasonably sure I've seen in multiple places that refunds of the difference are given between First and Standard Class Tickets where a Passenger has a First Class Ticket and has to plonk themselves down in Standard assuming they can even do that

Or have I just been receiving Good Will Gestures?

[gpn01]

Well done Nick!.
Does you know what the "correct" fair is, or where to find or calculate it?

Thanks - I appreciate the support.  I wasn't sure how this would be received, but to be clear my motive was not a witchhunt against FGW^▸ (First Great Western) but just to inform other passengers of an acknowledged issue.

Incidentally gpn01, I see that you are a fellow 07.08 traveller - I'd be happy to say hello and chat about this if you wanted to(?)

So the 'formula' for working out the correct price is as follows:
- Work out the difference in price between a 1st Class Eastbound to Paddington, and a 1st Class Eastbound with z1-6 Tube (should be ^3496-^2756 = ^740).
- Work out the difference in price between a Standard Class to Paddington, and a Standard Class with z1-6 Tube (should be ^4368-^3444 = ^924).
- The overcharge is ^924-^740 = ^184.

The same applies for Twyford and branch line tickets, and both 2012 and 2013 prices. 

Thanks Nick.  All I know is that I paid ^3982.40 for Maidenhead ^ Paddington Annual Season ticket in November with 1ST eastbound including London Zones 1 - 6 and that's after the 5% discount (which they took off the tube component!).  Think I^ll send an email asking what the correct fair should be.

I^ve switched from the 07:08 to the 06:43 as the 07:08 has been completely unreliable for the past few days.  No doubt we^ll bump into each other at some point though.  Be good to say HI!

[grahame]

Well done Nick!.
Does you know what the "correct" fair is, or where to find or calculate it?

Thanks - I appreciate the support.  I wasn't sure how this would be received, but to be clear my motive was not a witchhunt against FGW^▸ (First Great Western) but just to inform other passengers of an acknowledged issue.

Nick - may I add my support - especially bearing in mind the reasons for you going to the press.  This was indeed something of an unusual situation; it needed careful weighing up and from what I know you reached the right conclusion.  More typically - in most other cases - taking a complaint to the press simply strengthens the resolve of the company you're complaining about and makes it far harder to work constructively with them on future issues.