Ticket Office Closure Consultation

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

No currently staffed station will become unstaffed as a result of this reform, with staff still being there to provide assistance and additional support at stations for those who need and want it.

That is utter, utter b*ll*cks!

For example, WMT are proposing to only have 6 manned hubs, while all their other manned stations become unmanned with roving staff attending at times that won't be fixed. So unless this is guaranteeing attendance at *every* currently manned station *every* day, it's tosh.

[Trowres]

From National Rail:

Trowbridge reduced facilities availability

The ticket office, toilets and waiting rooms will have the following limited opening hours:

Friday 20th to Saturday 28th October - closed

Tickets can be bought from the ticket machine or digitally.

Westbury ticket office reduced opening hours

The ticket office will have the following limited opening hours:

Friday 20th October - 0650 to 1330
Saturday 21st October - closed
Sunday 22nd October - closed
Monday 23rd October - 0650 to 1330
Tuesday 24th October - 0650 to 1000
Wednesday 25th October - 0650 to 1330
Thursday 26th October - closed
Friday 27th October - 0650 to 1000
Saturday 28th October - closed

Tickets can be bought from the ticket machine or digitally.

Trowbridge already unstaffed for nine consecutive days. When I visited on the second of those days, one of the two ticket machines was u/s.

[grahame]

Pulling threads of thought together

... is it any surprise that if ticket offices are only open for short or erratic hour if at all that the number of tickets sold at them has dropped?    A shop that is closed doesn't have anyone coming in to buy!

... is it a surprise that if an unreliable train service is provided that people stop relying on it and travel other ways, or don't travel at all?

In my view, it is more important to provide, consistently, what you say you will provide than to stretch it to provide the most that can be done in "fair weather" but have it fall about at other times.

Yes, there is scope and indeed a requirement to offer a product that's modernised and efficient, but it needs to be customer friendly and reiiable though some teething troubles allowed.    In Utopia, people would be looking forward to the start of the new system - to something that's better to use, more enjoyable to work on - and everyone would be understanding as those initial problems were encountered and overcome.

[grahame]

By email from GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)

Just a quick note to remind you that Transport Focus and London TravelWatch will be reporting back on their consultation on how tickets are sold at stations next Tuesday (31 October).   
 
We will send a further update then, but we thought it would be helpful to send a reminder and a quick update on the work we have been doing in the meantime. 

We have been listening to stakeholders and colleagues and to Transport Focus and London TravelWatch who have been sharing key themes from the consultation, and as a result we have made a number of key changes to our proposals:
* Digital First, Not Only: We have changed our proposals so that retail trained staff will have handheld sales devices to support self-service ticket machines. This means customers will still find every type of ticket they can get today at a station in the future and staff will be available to help with ticket advice if needed. In addition, we will upgrade our ticket machines to sell a wider variety of tickets and more tickets will become digitally available.   Staff will also be able to help switch to buying digitally via our app or other options like pay-as-you-go/CPAY
* Staffing Hours: We are extending our staffing commitment so that retail trained colleagues will be on hand for the same hours as today at all stations with a ticket office, ready to help customers when they need it
* ‘Help at Hand’ Points: We have proposed the introduction of accessible, clearly marked Welcome Points with ‘Help at Hand’ buttons providing a direct link to a retail-trained staff member should they not be immediately available
* Cash availability: We are proposing to add cash payment options to our self-service Ticket Vending Machines 
 
We have also looked at the timing of the changes.  Before any change is made, we will first need to agree our revised plans with the Department for Transport, we will then discuss the changes with our colleagues and their Trade Unions, complete updated Equality Impact Assessments for each station and a Crime and Vulnerability Risk Assessment.
 
Once this is complete, we propose to reduce the number of windows available at stations with multiple windows, bringing those staff closer to customers on the station floor.  They will help customers use self-service machines, or digital purchase, while also helping with any queues for tickets with their handheld ticket devices.   We will review progress before making further changes, including bringing staff from single window stations out from behind the glass, with handheld devices, and the pace of change will be driven by changes that customers make in how they buy their tickets. 
 
We will update again on Tuesday when we have received the feedback from Transport Focus and London TravelWatch. 
 

[grahame]

By email from GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)

* Staffing Hours: We are extending our staffing commitment so that retail trained colleagues will be on hand for the same hours as today at all stations with a ticket office, ready to help customers when they need it
 

For West Wilts Stations then ...

Trowbridge ticket office closed today
Warminster closed today
Westbury ticket office 06:50 to 13:30 today
Frome 05:30 to 12:30 today
Bradford-on-Avon 06:30 to 14:00 today
Melksham, Avoncliff and Dilton Marsh do not have retail trained colleagues

Warminster reduced facilities availability
The ticket office, toilets and waiting rooms will have the following limited opening hours:
Friday 20th to Saturday 28th October - closed

Frome reduced facilities availability
The ticket office, toilets and waiting rooms will have the following limited opening hours:
Friday 20th October - 0530 to 1230
Saturday 21st and Sunday 22nd October - closed
Monday 23rd to Friday 27th October - 0530 to 1230
Saturday 28th October - closed
Tickets can be bought from the ticket machine or digitally

Bradford-on-Avon reduced facilities availability
The ticket office and waiting rooms have the following limited opening hours:
Friday 20th and Saturday 21st October - 0630 to 1400
Sunday 22nd October - closed
Monday 23rd to Saturday 28th October - 0630 to 1400
Tickets can be bought from the ticket machine or digitally.

[Clan Line]

Warminster reduced facilities availability
The ticket office, toilets and waiting rooms will have the following limited opening hours:
Friday 20th to Saturday 28th October - closed

"Reduced facilities"  =   NO facilities.

In a couple of years I can already hear GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) saying that the buildings are no longer cost effective. Warminster station will then be bulldozed - all that will remain will be two platforms, two bus shelters and the same two useless ticket machines that we have now...............unless they have already gone, they are not mentioned in GWR statement ! The footbridge is not necessary, the underbridge to the main car park will suffice - BUT there will be such a fall off in passengers that the car park will be sold to Persimmon.

[grahame]

By email from GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)

* Digital First, Not Only: We have changed our proposals so that retail trained staff will have handheld sales devices to support self-service ticket machines. This means customers will still find every type of ticket they can get today at a station in the future and staff will be available to help with ticket advice if needed. In addition, we will upgrade our ticket machines to sell a wider variety of tickets and more tickets will become digitally available.   Staff will also be able to help switch to buying digitally via our app or other options like pay-as-you-go/CPAY
 

From a passenger viewpoint, I am relieved at the change that will allow hand held ticket service at stations - guessing (and can anyone confirm) that will be like the equipment train managers have?

Misgivings remain -
* What hours will staff actually be available - comparison to "today" is confusing as many ticket offices are on short hours or closed today
* Will passengers, especially those with sensory or mobility issues, be able to find the roaming staff even if they know they are somewhere there
* Having consulted and now changing plans, what consultation on these changes to the changes?

Much of my criticism and cynicism comes down to a lack of trust.  I am fearful of saying "that sounds better" because there have been so many broken promises by the rail industry.  I awaken today to a cancellation of 2 out of 18 services at my local station due to a staff shortage - again.  Been going on for years, with promises of fixes; passengers travel on services that run. The 17:36 Swindon to Melksham should have run 60 times in the last 12 weeks. It has run 54.  The 18:44 should have run 60 times, but it has only run 49 - that an 82% performance.   Get that over 95%, GWR (you aim for 98%) , and I'll be a little less cynical about other plans.

[Electric train]

The government has already publicly denied in involvement in its response to a petition.
The Government has responded to the petition you signed – “Require train operators keep ticket offices and platform staff at train stations”.
Government responded:
The rail industry has consulted on plans to modernise to provide the service passengers deserve, moving staff from behind ticket office screens to provide help and advice in customer-focused roles.
Together with the rail industry, we want to improve and modernise the experience for passengers by moving staff out from behind the ticket office screens to provide more help and advice in customer-focused roles in the station. No currently staffed station will become unstaffed as a result of this reform, with staff still being there to provide assistance and additional support at stations for those who need and want it. This would include providing assistance in purchasing tickets and providing customer information. When consulting, train operators were required to follow the rules set out in the rail industry’s Ticketing and Settlement Agreement (TSA^▸ (Ticketing and Settlement Agreement.)), and the Government has no role unless objections are referred to the Secretary of State for a decision. We do not therefore plan to require train operators to keep ticket offices and platform staff at train stations.
There has been a significant shift in the way passengers purchase tickets, with just one in every ten transactions taking place at a ticket office in 2022/23, down from one in three a decade earlier. This is equivalent to 13% of revenue in 2022/23. Train operators have therefore consulted on proposals to close ticket offices and move staff out onto stations where they can provide support to passenger where this is needed.

The public consultations on proposed ticket office changes have now closed. The independent passenger bodies, Transport Focus and London TravelWatch, are engaging with train operators on the basis of the consultation responses they have received and the criteria they have set out on how they will consider their responses. Train operators are expected to work collaboratively with passenger bodies in the coming weeks to listen to the concerns raised and to refine their proposals accordingly.

Should ticket offices close following this process, staff would be redeployed and multi-skilled in order to provide advice and assistance across stations. Exact arrangements will vary operator by operator and will be the subject of collective bargaining with the trade unions. 
Department for Transport
This is a revised response. The Petitions Committee requested a response which more directly addressed the request of the petition. You can find the original response towards the bottom of the petition page https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/636542

The above is ever one was needed a definition "at arms length Government body"  ie an organisation / company that relies heavily on Government funding / subsidy, whereby the Government ministers / departments do not direct where cost savings can be made but Government ministers / departments merely suggest / indicate their thoughts on where savings could be made; in other words if the organisation / company follow the thinking of Government ministers / departments then the funding / subsidy will be supported by Government ministers / department.

This way the Government ministers / departments can "honestly" say the decisions on how a business is run is entirely up to the company / organisation and that Government ministers / departments have no day to day involvement in the running of the Railway

[PhilWakely]

By email from GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)

* Digital First, Not Only: We have changed our proposals so that retail trained staff will have handheld sales devices to support self-service ticket machines. This means customers will still find every type of ticket they can get today at a station in the future and staff will be available to help with ticket advice if needed. In addition, we will upgrade our ticket machines to sell a wider variety of tickets and more tickets will become digitally available.   Staff will also be able to help switch to buying digitally via our app or other options like pay-as-you-go/CPAY
 

From a passenger viewpoint, I am relieved at the change that will allow hand held ticket service at stations - guessing (and can anyone confirm) that will be like the equipment train managers have?

Misgivings remain -
* What hours will staff actually be available - comparison to "today" is confusing as many ticket offices are on short hours or closed today
* Will passengers, especially those with sensory or mobility issues, be able to find the roaming staff even if they know they are somewhere there
* Having consulted and now changing plans, what consultation on these changes to the changes?

Much of my criticism and cynicism comes down to a lack of trust.  I am fearful of saying "that sounds better" because there have been so many broken promises by the rail industry.  I awaken today to a cancellation of 2 out of 18 services at my local station due to a staff shortage - again.  Been going on for years, with promises of fixes; passengers travel on services that run. The 17:36 Swindon to Melksham should have run 60 times in the last 12 weeks. It has run 54.  The 18:44 should have run 60 times, but it has only run 49 - that an 82% performance.   Get that over 95%, GWR (you aim for 98%) , and I'll be a little less cynical about other plans.

The technology does not exist yet - unless it will be a simple pager carried by ex-ticket office staff

[GBM]

The above is ever one was needed a definition "at arms length Government body"  ie an organisation / company that relies heavily on Government funding / subsidy, whereby the Government ministers / departments do not direct where cost savings can be made but Government ministers / departments merely suggest / indicate their thoughts on where savings could be made; in other words if the organisation / company follow the thinking of Government ministers / departments then the funding / subsidy will be supported by Government ministers / department.

This way the Government ministers / departments can "honestly" say the decisions on how a business is run is entirely up to the company / organisation and that Government ministers / departments have no day to day involvement in the running of the Railway

"Yes Minister" TV series still up to date, which came out in 1986!

[eightonedee]

There does seem to be an extraordinary ineptitude at present in the handling of sensitive or difficult decisions about the railways, which in reality must come back to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).  As pointed out above, no-one can believe that the department, through the ORR^» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) is not behind this, bearing in mind that they micro-managed such details as the internal seat layouts of refurbished trains.

In this case, I can only assume that under pressure from the Treasury to cut costs someone had the bright idea of getting the RDG^‡(resolve) to “consult” on closing ticket offices to save on staff, and heating and maintaining the accommodation.  It is not difficult to imagine that it might have been in response to a communication along the lines of “the Treasury wants to cut £XXm off the amount of support they give to the railways, how can you find a way or ways to cut P&L expenditure – like do you need all those staffed stations that we see cost £YYm a year – don’t most people now buy tickets on-line?” The RDG, dependant upon the award of contracts from “the Government”, can hardly refuse.

With all those involved living in the echo chamber of politics and the civil service, they probably have little idea how implausible it seems to those members of the general public who take an interest that this there was no Government involvement. They would have been better coming clean at the outset and saying that they have to save costs and this is an idea on which they are consulting, instead of all the unbelievable rubbish about flexibility, improving the service and similar that they served up.

It is a similar situation with HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) – Sunak wanted to give his right wing some “red meat” at his party conference, but reserve it for his big speech.  By keeping it under wraps (as he and his advisers hoped!), all it did was make him look weak and indecisive when he refused to be drawn in the run-up. Sadly, I think that part of the background is that someone has made the cynical calculation that the proportion of the voting public that travels by train regularly (or at all), is sufficiently low that they can risk sacrificing the railways for quick cost savings or internal party reasons. But it works both ways – there may be a majority that don’t care too much, but even to them scrapping a project that costs billions part-way through, pretending that removing a facility is to improve service or that a decision hasn’t been made when it has is not “a good look”.

So, I doubt Mark Harper will want to accept an invitation form the forum. Perhaps though, as he professes to have fallen in love with buses, we can set up a sub-group (Bath and Bristol Bus Group, anyone?) and issue the invitation in their name?

[grahame]

We are just a couple of days from Transport Focus publishing their report and recommendations based on the public consultation. Even in the lead up to the report, tickets offices are failing to be open for their contacted hours - from Today's Journey Check and these are just the last minute ones

Cheltenham Spa: Ticket Office Closure
Gloucester: Ticket Office Closure
Oxford: Ticket Office Closure
Stroud: Ticket Office Closure
Weston-Super-Mare: Ticket Office Closure
Worcestershire Parkway Hl: Ticket Office Closure

The ticket office is closed at Worcestershire Parkway Hl station.

Looking at others on a case by case basis we have things on National Rail like:

Trowbridge reduced facilities availability
The ticket office, toilets and waiting rooms will be unavailable until further notice.
Tickets can be bought from the ticket machine or digitally.

Some of the JourneyCheck issues reduced hours rather than all day closure, but it does rather look as if facilities and staffing are significantly reduced even before the consultation is finished.  Of the 79 GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) ticket offices, I suspect only 50 to 60 are supposed to be open on Sundays so today's failures are not just "here and there" - they're at perhaps 15% of ticket offices that should be open.  Which will help(!) turn "no-one uses the ticket offices" into a self-fulfilling prophecy - if they're not open, then no-one can use them

I note that toilets and waiting room are out of use at Trowbridge.   Do I recall a promise that such facilities would remain available during previous ticket office hours even when the ticket office closed?  Or was I dreaming that promise?

[IndustryInsider]

GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) attempting to compromise, and I expect other operators will come up with a remarkably similar set of proposals:

”We have listened to the concerns raised and have made changes to our original proposals and this is what we have been working on to address the things raised through the process:
‌
‌1. Staffing Hours: We're extending our original  staffing commitment, so retail-trained colleagues will be available during current ticket office hours, just like today. This ensures help is readily available when needed. No more waiting for assistance, as staff will be there at the same times as ticket offices are currently open, providing help with our customers travel needs.
‌
2. 'Help at Hand' Points: We will introduce Welcome Points with 'Help at Hand' buttons at all stations with ticket offices. They'll be clearly marked and accessible, providing a direct link to a retail-trained colleague during current ticket office hours. If customers need help with a purchase or travel query, they can just approach one of these points, and receive in-person assistance. No more uncertainty about where to go for help; it's right at their fingertips.  We will include the opportunity for disabled customers and groups to have familiarisation visits and will update our Equality Impact Assessments for each station once we have thoroughly reviewed and agreed the best location for these Welcome Points.
‌
‌3. Digital First, Not Digital Only: We understand that the world of ticketing is changing, and many customers are embracing digital options. But that doesn't mean we're leaving anyone behind. By changing our proposals to give colleagues handheld ticket sales devices to support self-service ticket machines, customers will still find every type of ticket they can get today without needing to go online. Plus, staff will be on hand to show customers the convenience of buying digitally via our app or other options like pay-as-you-go/CPAY. The range of ticket choices available will remain just as extensive as before.  We will also be enabling our TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) to retail a wider range of products and there is an industry workstream to digitise tickets which are not currently available in this form.
‌
4. Cash availability: We understand that there are customers who prefer to use cash.  We will enable cash payments on self-service Ticket Vending Machines where that ability has previously been suppressed.
‌
We anticipate that expected timescales will also change as we rephase our proposals to ensure no customers are left behind. Our proposal now is that stations with more than one window in operation will see some retail staff move from behind the glass of the ticket office in Phase 1 so they are closer to our customers. They will help customers use self-service machines, or digitally purchase, while also helping with any queues for tickets with their handheld ticket devices. Some retail colleagues will initially remain in Ticket Offices at the station offering wider support for customers, as well as offering advice and where needed help to purchase the full range of rail products.”

[grahame]

There does seem to be an extraordinary ineptitude at present in the handling of sensitive or difficult decisions about the railways, which in reality must come back to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).  ...

So, I doubt Mark Harper will want to accept an invitation form the forum. ....

Forgive the "snip" - many a true word in there but I wanted to highlight those elements together. 

With the railways commonly considered to be in something of a state of crisis, you would expect the  top managers to get a polite but pretty rough ride at consumer / passenger groups.   But yet at the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) Community Rail, Mark Hopwood for GWR and Andrew Haines for Network Rail and Great British Railways got good receptions and for the most part (there were one or two outliers) understanding and appreciative questioning.   I could contrast that to the much spikier response to the video from Mark Harper which seemed to me not to address the points it should, and seemed distant from the situation we find on the ground.  It's a very brave man - for any of the three - to face that audience fun credit to the two who did.  I would love to see Mick Lynch answering knoweldgable community rail advocates in a forum too.


With ticket office sales down from 85% to 12% of tickets, it is natural to rebalance resources.   Aside - of course, the 12% might actually be around 25% if there were staffed ticket offices consistently open at the majority of GWR stations on the current ticketing system, and it might have dropped naturally to 10% of journeys or even less with an understandable fare system and swipes on a credit / debit card that everyone trusted. .   Now GWR probably realised they would be unlikely to get away with a proposal to close all 79 ticket offices by the end of next year but if they propose hat and end us closing, say, 60, they have probably got what they really want - a win.  And at the same time the passenger groups have gone from saving zero to saving 19 - a win too. What a happy scenario.

[froome]

GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) attempting to compromise, and I expect other operators will come up with a remarkably similar set of proposals:

”We have listened to the concerns raised and have made changes to our original proposals and this is what we have been working on to address the things raised through the process:
‌
‌1. Staffing Hours: We're extending our original  staffing commitment, so retail-trained colleagues will be available during current ticket office hours, just like today. This ensures help is readily available when needed. No more waiting for assistance, as staff will be there at the same times as ticket offices are currently open, providing help with our customers travel needs.
‌
”

So what does "just like today" mean? As has already been said, and in fact has been going on all through this year but worsening over that period, many ticket offices that are supposed to be open are either fully closed or closed for periods when they are supposed to be open.

So does it mean "Just like today, we will close a ticket office when we don't have staff available/have staff available but have removed them to other duties/or just don't feel like it."?