Ashchurch for Tewkesbury Train Service Cuts - Petition To The PM

[whole diary]

[Lee]

Ashchurch for Tewkesbury station used to have many direct train services to Birmingham , but currently , it is mainly served by a 2 - hourly service from Great Malvern & Bristol. Passengers wishing to travel to Birmingham usually have to travel south to Cheltenham Spa , change onto a northbound train , then return northwards , passing through Ashchurch without stopping. From December 2006 , some direct services to and from Birmingham were reintroduced , but the new Arriva Cross Country Franchise proposes to CUT these on weekdays from 7 to 4 northbound services and from 4 (5 on Fridays) to 2 Southbound services.

With a large car park , a wide catchment area and a bus service EVERY 15 MINUTES to Tewkesbury , doesnt cutting the already sparse train service make a mockery of the government's policy of encouraging integrated transport and taking more cars off the road?

I call on the Prime Minister to use the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)'s powers to require Arriva to provide MORE , not LESS stops at Ashchurch for Tewkesbury station in the new Cross Country Franchise. With passenger numbers at the station rising already , along with the likely population/development growth , I believe that the demand will justify it.

Join me by signing the following petition (link below.)
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ashchurchtrains/

Deadline for signatures is 22 November 2007.

Please also e-mail Arriva Cross Country regarding this at :

Info@crosscountrytrains.co.uk

Or write to them at :

External Relations,
CrossCountry Mobilisation Team
5th Floor,
43 Temple Row,
Birmingham,
B2 5LS

Their consultation ends on 23 November 2007.

[Shazz]

/signed

[martyjon]

Passengers wishing to travel to Birmingham usually have to travel south to Cheltenham Spa , change onto a northbound train , then return northwards , passing through Ashchurch without stopping.

WRONG

Passengers have a choice, travel as reported OR catch a northbound service to Great Malvern and change at Worcester onto a service to Birmingham.

The trouble is with people who self proclaim to be champions of the people and set up petitions for this or that cause are really not affected by the subject of their petitions at all.

When I was a member of a LA we had a petition presented to us by a busybody regarding the withdrawal of a bus service from town T to city C which ran hourly through village V. This service was indeed to be withdrawn BUT there was another service which ran from city C serving villages A, B, C terminating at village D. THIS service was to be extended to Town T serving village V en route and thus provide for the first time, a regular two hourly service from Villages A, B, C and D to town T plus a link to village V from villages A, B, C and D.

Yes, village V was to lose an hourly link between town T and city C but villages A, B ,C and D were gaining a regular, as opposed to 4 services a day, service to city C and for the first time a link to town T.

The petition was presented to the council at the beginning of the meeting in the public question time and I requested the petition to browse over and report to the meeting later to conclude the public question time period.

A quick browse of this 3000+ signature petition revealed that only 6 villagers of village V (population about 350) had signed the petition, and four or five times each at that, the remaining signatures seemed to have been gathered from about a dozen streets from the opposite side of Bristol, 15 miles away.

In my summing up at the end of the public question time I reported on my quick perusal of the petition with the facts as above and recommended, "Madam Chairman, on handing back this petition to you as recipient of same, I recommend that the petition be filed in the nearest waste paper basket". 

NO, I havent signed the petition and YES, I won't be signing it

[Lee]

The trouble is with people who self proclaim to be champions of the people and set up petitions for this or that cause are really not affected by the subject of their petitions at all.

I did say usually have to travel south to Cheltenham Spa rather than always having to do so.

Sorry you feel unable to sign , martyjon and its entirely your choice. However , I would rather you didnt belittle the fact that I spend much of my time helping campaigners outside of my area. They seem quite happy to have my assistance , and if its ok with you , I will carry on providing it.

I am giving a talk on behalf of FOSBR^▸ (Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways) in Avonmouth this afternoon , by the way , so I wont be around on the forum.

[Lee]

Thanks to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) cancelling MY 1022 Portsmouth - Cardiff train , I have a bit more time to spend on this.

Passengers wishing to travel to Birmingham usually have to travel south to Cheltenham Spa , change onto a northbound train , then return northwards , passing through Ashchurch without stopping.

WRONG

Passengers have a choice, travel as reported OR catch a northbound service to Great Malvern and change at Worcester onto a service to Birmingham.

Do they really have a choice? Lets compare the two with typical examples :

Ashchurch for Tewkesbury depart 1253 , arrive Cheltenham Spa 1302.
Change at Cheltenham Spa.
Cheltenham Spa depart 1312 , arrive Birmingham New Street 1357.

OVERALL JOURNEY TIME - 1 HOUR 4 MINUTES

Ashchurch for Tewkesbury depart 1256 , arrive Worcester Shrub Hill 1325.
Change at Worcester Shrub Hill.
Worcester Shrub Hill depart 1347 , arrive Birmingham Snow Hill 1445 or Birmingham Moor Street 1449.

OVERALL JOURNEY TIME - 1 HOUR 49 MINUTES - 1 HOUR 53 MINUTES

However , both of the above examples ignore the petition case for more direct trains between Ashchurch for Tewkesbury and Birmingham.

OVERALL JOURNEY TIME - 40 - 45 MINUTES

[Graz]

The same thing could be said about Melksham. "Passengers have a choice if they want to get the train to work in the morning...get the 7:00 or catch the bus." Both of which are unviable for many hence the severe drop off in passengers and congested roads. An unreliable service doesn't help.

Instead of harshly dismissing this good idea, please stop and think.  A quick service from these rapidly growing towns to Birmingham and south. An increase on the generally 1 train per 2 hour inadequate service. A currently wasted bus to the station that could be put to very good use. Little effect on the existing Cardiff - Nottingham service. Higher revenue, growth, less congestion on the M5. Less congestion on Cheltenham-Birmingham services for those wishing to change for the North. And potential investment to the towns from new housing, commerce, etc. Above all, much happier passengers.

And the negatives? I can't think of any. Every effort must be made to increase services to places which need them, and after a visit to Tewkesbury a while ago I can say that it would bring a massive benefit.

For those wishing to support the proposition, as well as signing Lee's petition it is very much well worth consulting Arriva at info{at}crosscountrytrains[dot]co[dot]uk as big differences can happen in the consultation process. Please see http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/ams/routes/timetable2009new_oct07.pdf for the full proposed timetable.

[martyjon]

As a former member of a LA we would only consider petitions if they were instigated by people affected by the subject and signed by people affected by the subject.

In the case of this petition, the poster seems to suggest that HE instigated the petition and is requesting persons all over the West (and elsewhere) to sign it.

He also used in his typical example the LONGEST journey duration between Ashchurch and Birmingham New Street via Worcester when the other 5 services I have checked on this route the journey duration varies from 1h:13m to 1h:28m, check them yourself.

He has fallen into the trap, hook, line and sinker that many petitioners / campaigners do, present the worst case scenario to justify the case.

I am not belittleing the poster, let hime do the research, present the research to those involved but let them take the action, it presents more credibility to those that are being petitioned to receive a petition instigated by local people, signed by local people on a local issue.

I'm not, but if I were the PM and I received the petition concerned and I saw it was instigated (I'm not saying it is) by a resident from the South Coast on an issue in the South Midlands signed by persons all over the West Country, I would file it in the nearest waste paper bin.

I will try and post further on this in the coming few days when I have time.

[grahame]

As a former member of a LA we would only consider petitions if they were instigated by people affected by the subject and signed by people affected by the subject.

I'm not coming down on either "side" in this discussion but I am going to observe that the way local authorities work with regard to listening to community views is not necessarily the same as other organisations with this regard.

I recall a consultation run by the SRA^» (Strategic Rail Authority - about), oft-quoted by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), concerning the withdrawl of the TransWilts service.  The quote was always "the consultation did NOT come down in unanimous support for a continuation of the service" and that was because they had one - yes ONE - person write in from elsewhere in the South West suggesting that the train be pulled off the TransWilts and used to run a load of extra services to the already-better-served town that the author of the dissenting view happened to live in.

[John R]

There is a fine balance here. The residents of Chepstow are also campaigning for the Cardiff to Nottingham service to call there. (There is a website, but I don't have the address to hand.) The more stops reduces the attractiveness of the service to the main users, which is to provide a decent hourly fast service from South Wales to the Midlands.

In a similar way the additional stops which Bradford on Avon will soon enjoy come at the expense of a further stop on the Cardiff - Portsmouth service. Does anyone else remember when they ran one stop only between Bath and Southampton (Salisbury)? OK, I know I'm showing my age, and yes they were Class 33 and Mk 1 stock.

So, it's easy to criticise, but those that make these decisions tread a fine line in balancing the conflicting objectives that these services are meant to provide.  I'm not saying I agree with the changes, just that I can understand the drivers for the change.   

     

[martyjon]

There is a fine balance here. The residents of Chepstow are also campaigning for the Cardiff to Nottingham service to call there. (There is a website, but I don't have the address to hand.) The more stops reduces the attractiveness of the service to the main users, which is to provide a decent hourly fast service from South Wales to the Midlands.

In a similar way the additional stops which Bradford on Avon will soon enjoy come at the expense of a further stop on the Cardiff - Portsmouth service. Does anyone else remember when they ran one stop only between Bath and Southampton (Salisbury)? OK, I know I'm showing my age, and yes they were Class 33 and Mk 1 stock.

So, it's easy to criticise, but those that make these decisions tread a fine line in balancing the conflicting objectives that these services are meant to provide.  I'm not saying I agree with the changes, just that I can understand the drivers for the change.   

     

AND Lydney.

[martyjon]

I recall a consultation run by the SRA^» (Strategic Rail Authority - about), oft-quoted by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), concerning the withdrawl of the TransWilts service.  The quote was always "the consultation did NOT come down in unanimous support for a continuation of the service" and that was because they had one - yes ONE - person write in from elsewhere in the South West suggesting that the train be pulled off the TransWilts and used to run a load of extra services to the already-better-served town that the author of the dissenting view happened to live in.

Unanimous, which I don't think I need to define for members of this forum but I will for clarity, means without dissent. One dissenting comment can quite rightly lead to the reported conclusion but what I expect did happen, and believe me I've seen it happen, is that those resposible for transport issues along the Tran-Wilts corridor in all probability assumed that ONE dissenting view would not lead to the culling of the Trans-Wilts service to the extent it did. Realising what was happening at the eleventh hour these 'stalwarts of the community' found that the deal had already been done and dusted
when the campaigners explained to them WHAT WAS REALLY HAPPENING.

Slightly of at a tangent, I had a run-in with an individual who was a party for public transport issues in the locality to me. A statement was made to the meeting I was attending and I raised a 'point of order' and explained that the information given to the meeting was incorrect and the correct detail was .., but before I had chance to finish, an attempt to stifle me was made. This attempt was to try and clarify, and incorrectly at that, the incorrect statement previously made. I persisted and suggested that the two of us should, on leaving the meeting, call in at the local station as it both on our separate ways home for the member of the LA to see the subject of our disagreement theirselves. This was not necessary as some other brave attendee at the meeting did speak up for me indicating my correcting comments were rightly the situation AND that was only after he had 'woken up' at the sound of raised voices.

Reminiscent of trying to shut the door of the stable before the horse bolts but finding the horse had already fled.

Anyway, having said that and back to the 4 153's mothballed at Eastleigh, one of them, as I have stated on another thread, could have been brought back on lease to placate the dissenting voice. We know now that they have been in warm storage for the past 10 months - shameful. 

[Graz]

There is a fine balance here. The residents of Chepstow are also campaigning for the Cardiff to Nottingham service to call there. (There is a website, but I don't have the address to hand.) The more stops reduces the attractiveness of the service to the main users, which is to provide a decent hourly fast service from South Wales to the Midlands.

In a similar way the additional stops which Bradford on Avon will soon enjoy come at the expense of a further stop on the Cardiff - Portsmouth service. Does anyone else remember when they ran one stop only between Bath and Southampton (Salisbury)? OK, I know I'm showing my age, and yes they were Class 33 and Mk 1 stock.

So, it's easy to criticise, but those that make these decisions tread a fine line in balancing the conflicting objectives that these services are meant to provide.  I'm not saying I agree with the changes, just that I can understand the drivers for the change.   

     

Bear in mind however that Chepstow is already served by a good, reliable hourly service from Gloucester to Cardiff (Maesteg). The Cardiff-Nottingham service is semi fast and I think it would be overkill for this train to call at Lydney, Chepstow and Caldicot regularly.

On the other hand, Ashchurch for Tewkesbury is served by a 1 train per 2 hour, less reliable service that doesn't provide many convenient journey oppertunities. Services from Cheltenham - Birmingham are already served by fast X-Country trains, so I'm sure it wouldn't matter so much for occasional Cardiff-Nottingham service calls at Ashchurch.

On the subject of Bradford-on-Avon...I'm sort of on the fence about it.  Cardiff-Portsmouth journeys are already fairly long as it is, and trains most of the time are full. But B-o-A is a fairly big place. Maybe it would be better to introduce a 3rd service (SWT^▸ (South West Trains) maybe?) to cater for BoA^» (Bradford-on-Avon - next trains) and Trowbridge, and have the Cardiff-Portsmouth service run fast to Salisbury.

[grahame]

.... is that those resposible for transport issues along the Tran-Wilts corridor in all probability assumed that ONE dissenting view would not lead to the culling of the Trans-Wilts service to the extent it did.

I don't have hypothetical hindsight, so I can never know (and nor can you) how much effect that  dissenting voice had.   But I do know it was quoted back to us many times.  I suspect that to some extent it was just an easy excuse for the "powers that be" to keep peddling out and they might have pushed other excuses harder.

Realising what was happening at the eleventh hour these 'stalwarts of the community' found that the deal had already been done and dusted when the campaigners explained to them WHAT WAS REALLY HAPPENING.  ....

How true this is!  The TransWilts train services that left Swindon at 08:46, and that arrived there at 17:35, were an integral part of our business in 2003, 2004, 2005 ... I was regularly at our local station collecting or dropping off customers, and watched with delight as the station and services got noticeably busier, falsely assuming that with all this growth the service was substantially safe.

Come August 2005, a letter in our local paper that said "do you realise you have missed the SRA^» (Strategic Rail Authority - about) consultation on the future of this line ..." and - yikes, the decision to cut most of the services had indeed been done and dusted behind doors in London without a single notice that I was aware of up at the station. I take no pride in coming in to the campaign in August 2005 rather than six months earlier, and at self-critical times ask myself if I was over-lax in assuming that the growing train service was there for the foreseeable future.

[Lee]

As a former member of a LA we would only consider petitions if they were instigated by people affected by the subject and signed by people affected by the subject.

In the case of this petition, the poster seems to suggest that HE instigated the petition and is requesting persons all over the West (and elsewhere) to sign it.

He also used in his typical example the LONGEST journey duration between Ashchurch and Birmingham New Street via Worcester when the other 5 services I have checked on this route the journey duration varies from 1h:13m to 1h:28m, check them yourself.

He has fallen into the trap, hook, line and sinker that many petitioners / campaigners do, present the worst case scenario to justify the case.

I am not belittleing the poster, let hime do the research, present the research to those involved but let them take the action, it presents more credibility to those that are being petitioned to receive a petition instigated by local people, signed by local people on a local issue.

I'm not, but if I were the PM and I received the petition concerned and I saw it was instigated (I'm not saying it is) by a resident from the South Coast on an issue in the South Midlands signed by persons all over the West Country, I would file it in the nearest waste paper bin.

I will try and post further on this in the coming few days when I have time.

The example I quoted is a typical one , because it is in the middle of the period where there are no direct Ashchurch - Birmingham services , and there are no alternatives of any kind for 2 hours either side. You also havent answered why you think that your "via Worcester timings" are adequate as opposed to 40 - 45 minutes for a direct service.

As it happens , I never intended to do this all myself. You may be interested in the following press release :

"Alistair Cameron, Liberal Democrat Prospective Parliamentary Candidate for Tewkesbury urges everyone to sign the 10 Downing Street on line petition calling the Prime Minister to reverse the planned train service cuts from Ashchurch Railway Station direct to Birmingham.
 
The on line petition was set up by Mr Lee Fletcher following proposals by Arriva in their Cross Country Franchise to cut direct services to and from Birmingham on weekdays from 7 to 4 northbound services and from 4 (5 on Fridays) to 2 southbound services.
 
Without these services, passengers will have to travel south to Cheltenham Spa, change onto a northbound train, then return northwards, passing through Ashchurch without stopping.
 
Alistair Cameron said: "Ashchurch has a large car park, a wide catchment area and a bus service every 15 minutes to Tewkesbury. To allow Arriva to cut this already sparse service would make a nonsense of the government's claim that it is encouraging integrated transport and taking more cars off the road.
 
The Prime Minister should use the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)'s powers to require Arriva to provide more, not less, stops at Ashchurch. With passenger numbers rising at the station, along with the growth in population in the area, the demand will justify it."
 
The petition can be found at the following web address  http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ashchurchtrains/
 
For more information, contact Alistair Cameron on 01242 584081 or 07901 564616."

As grahame and others will testify , I have done this sort of thing before....

Perhaps now would be a good time for you to reflect on the perils of jumping in feet first without checking the facts , and also for you to bring this particular "trolling session" to an end.

[Lee]

He also used in his typical example the LONGEST journey duration between Ashchurch and Birmingham New Street via Worcester when the other 5 services I have checked on this route the journey duration varies from 1h:13m to 1h:28m, check them yourself.

He has fallen into the trap, hook, line and sinker that many petitioners / campaigners do, present the worst case scenario to justify the case.

I have realised though , that both martyjon and I have done readers of this forum an enormous disservice.

We havent told you what things are like in the opposite direction.

Birmingham New Street depart 0940 , arrive Cheltenham Spa 1022.
Change at Cheltenham Spa.
Cheltenham Spa depart 1048 , arrive Ashchurch for Tewkesbury 1055.

OVERALL JOURNEY TIME - 1 HOUR 15 MINUTES

Birmingham Moor Street depart 0909 or Birmingham Snow Hill depart 0913  , arrive Worcester Shrub Hill 1010.
Change at Worcester Shrub Hill.
Worcester Shrub Hill depart 1036 , arrive Ashchurch for Tewkesbury 1053.

OVERALL JOURNEY TIME - 1 HOUR 40 MINUTES - 1 HOUR 44 MINUTES

Birmingham New Street depart 1140 , arrive Cheltenham Spa 1222.
Change at Cheltenham Spa.
Cheltenham Spa depart 1248 , arrive Ashchurch for Tewkesbury 1255.

OVERALL JOURNEY TIME - 1 HOUR 15 MINUTES

Birmingham Moor Street depart 1109 or Birmingham Snow Hill depart 1113  , arrive Worcester Shrub Hill 1209.
Change at Worcester Shrub Hill.
Worcester Shrub Hill depart 1236 , arrive Ashchurch for Tewkesbury 1253.

OVERALL JOURNEY TIME - 1 HOUR 40 MINUTES - 1 HOUR 44 MINUTES

Birmingham New Street depart 1340 , arrive Cheltenham Spa 1422.
Change at Cheltenham Spa.
Cheltenham Spa depart 1448 , arrive Ashchurch for Tewkesbury 1455.

OVERALL JOURNEY TIME - 1 HOUR 15 MINUTES

Birmingham Moor Street depart 1309 or Birmingham Snow Hill depart 1313  , arrive Worcester Shrub Hill 1416.
Change at Worcester Shrub Hill.
Worcester Shrub Hill depart 1436 , arrive Ashchurch for Tewkesbury 1453.

OVERALL JOURNEY TIME - 1 HOUR 40 MINUTES - 1 HOUR 44 MINUTES

Birmingham New Street depart 1540 , arrive Cheltenham Spa 1622.
Change at Cheltenham Spa.
Cheltenham Spa depart 1648 , arrive Ashchurch for Tewkesbury 1655.

OVERALL JOURNEY TIME - 1 HOUR 15 MINUTES

Birmingham Moor Street depart 1509 or Birmingham Snow Hill depart 1513  , arrive Worcester Shrub Hill 1608.
Change at Worcester Shrub Hill.
Worcester Shrub Hill depart 1635 , arrive Ashchurch for Tewkesbury 1651.

OVERALL JOURNEY TIME - 1 HOUR 38 MINUTES - 1 HOUR 42 MINUTES

With the final example , bear in mind that there is currently a 1530 train from Birmingham New Street direct & non - stop to Ashchurch for Tewkesbury (arriving at 1606 , 36 minute journey time.) However , the Ashchurch stop will be withdrawn as part of the proposed service cuts.

I dont think that I can be accused of selective examples , as all of the "martyjon option" timings appear to be significantly worse.....

That said , all of the non - direct examples above are far worse timing - wise than a direct Birmingham - Ashchurch service would be.

There is a fine balance here. The residents of Chepstow are also campaigning for the Cardiff to Nottingham service to call there. (There is a website, but I don't have the address to hand.) The more stops reduces the attractiveness of the service to the main users, which is to provide a decent hourly fast service from South Wales to the Midlands.

In a similar way the additional stops which Bradford on Avon will soon enjoy come at the expense of a further stop on the Cardiff - Portsmouth service.

Personally (without wishing for one moment to detract from Chepstow and Lydney) I think that there is enough potential , for all the reasons that Graz & I have put forward , to justify an additional stop in this particular case.