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Author Topic: Thousands of passengers dodging fares in Bristol area every day (Bristol Post)  (Read 15679 times)
eightf48544
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« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2014, 01:14:37 »

Wonder what the difference is between the Council's figures and the DfT» (Department for Transport - about)'s. Presumably it could be said to be the number travelling free!
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Oberon
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« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2014, 16:11:27 »

Oyster (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) Cards seem to work pretty well in London. I wonder in the long term if there could be some sort of equivalent introduced in the Bristol area?
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« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2014, 17:24:27 »

Oyster (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) Cards seem to work pretty well in London. I wonder in the long term if there could be some sort of equivalent introduced in the Bristol area?

Oyster is dead and eventually TfL» (Transport for London - about) will phase it out. I do believe that TfL have to pay a fee to CTS for running the oyster system (very very small). Why have a system where a customer uses visa/mc to top up an oystercard when you can just tap the visa/mc card directly on the gates and bypass an additional step. Cheaper to process en mass at the end of the day rather then lots of individual transactions at different stations with different merchant codes.

DfT» (Department for Transport - about) want ITSO on all franchises eventually. (Read eventually as sometime in the future when its not our problem and we dont have to worry as its someone else's issue.)

SN/LM (London Midland - recent franchise) have "the Key". (Which works on some Go-Ahead buses)
SWT (South West Trains)/EMT» (East Midlands Trains - about) have "Stagecoach Smart". (which works on SC buses)
FSR (First Scot Rail) have ScotRail Smart. (Which apparently is planned to work on SPT (Signal Post Telephone) buses)
MiseryRail have Walrus card.
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Oberon
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« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2014, 17:46:23 »

Crikey - no wonder you're a Hero Member!
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Brucey
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« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2014, 18:42:21 »

Oyster (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) Cards seem to work pretty well in London. I wonder in the long term if there could be some sort of equivalent introduced in the Bristol area?
One of the reasons Oyster became so successful was because the "cash fare" was increased considerably at the same time.  So people had to switch to Oyster in order to get the lower fare.
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JayMac
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« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2014, 18:48:09 »

Something that TOCs (Train Operating Company) won't be able to do with regulated fares.
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thetrout
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« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2014, 19:34:55 »

I agree with the general consensus of the thread here. It is wrong to force a passenger to queue for 20 minutes+ (that is also being generous) when no previous opportunity existed beforehand.

There is a small trick that works, that by buying the ticket on the FGW (First Great Western) App before travel or during travel. I have often found that by showing this to gateline staff and saying I need to collect, they'll let you out. I often do this where BRI» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) is my interchange station and Frome's Ticket Machine is down. I would have no problem bringing the ticket back to the gateline for them to dispose of to show I was being honest.

There have sadly been occasions where I have arrived at BRI gateline and requested the purchase of a ticket and been told NO but then they open the barrier and gesture you toward it to leave Roll Eyes

It's a real sorry state of affairs actually, because as a passenger who makes mostly every effort to buy a ticket before travelling. When you come across those occasions where pre-purchasing is near to impossible or impractical and you receive the special RPI (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) treatment. It really sucks.

For an idea a recent experience I had on ticketless travel. I recently had the pleasure of travelling on Southeastern Trains. I had started the journey from a penalty fares station but no facility existed.

When I arrived at an interchange station I discovered that ticket checks were being made on the platforms as opposed to the generic exit. A queue quickly formed and I was worried about missing my connection. So I decided to walk around it to explain I had no ticket, no oppertunity to buy one and that my connection was "Over there and leaving in 11 mintues" I then get told "Back in line, you've committed an offence!" blood boiled very quickly and I quoted NRCoC (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) and was rudely interrupted and told I had committed travel fraud. Jokingly and perhaps foolishly I retorted "add it to the charge list then. I spilt coffee on the train, that comes under Soiling the railway in the NRCoC surely? and don't get me started on where the toilet waste goes!" The RPI then said, back of the line or I'll get the BTP (British Transport Police) to sort you out. I told them to do so because I wasn't going to tolerate being accused of travel fraud if I couldn't by a ticket in the bloody first place.

The RPI was taken aback by this, and said don't get smart because BTP are over there. Again I told them to carry on and I wasn't getting smart, I was already being smart. BTP were summoned over and I started explaining before the RPI could get a word in. Also quoted the relevant legislation in terms of ticketless travel. The RPI was visibly very angry now to which point she said I was using threatening behavior and was acting in a nervous and suspicious manner. At which point another passenger who boarded at the same station as I had, piped in and said "Excuse me, he has done nothing of the sort. Yes he looks a bit nervous but he's been like that ever since I saw him at the starting station"

BTP decided to take me to one side away from the RPIs. The copper then said, if anyone asks you said you needed to use the toilet and then I was distracted by a colleague and you sneaked onto that train over there. But of course I will deny any knowledge of that being the case and winked at me. I made that connection by 3 minutes. I wonder how many people would just accept it and missed the connection I wonder?

Ticketless travel that is the fault of the operators is a very ugly and difficult topic riddled with grey areas. Many won't argue. I can be extremely argumentative when I am portrayed to have done something wrong when that is simply not the case. In other words, I don't like being told I've done something wrong when I know for a clear fact that, that is not true Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2014, 20:36:41 »

Im also sure the Passengers Charter (in whatever form it may be called now days) also states you shouldn't have to queue for more then 4mins off peak or 8mins peak to purchase a ticket.
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thetrout
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« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2014, 21:43:56 »

Im also sure the Passengers Charter (in whatever form it may be called now days) also states you shouldn't have to queue for more then 4mins off peak or 8mins peak to purchase a ticket.

And this is something I have a big problem with. Because there is nothing that I can think of, that governs when a customer exceeds the charter set wait time and decides to start the journey ticketless that protects them. Trowbridge is an excellent example. Frequently closes early, understaffed etc. You then have the old lady infront of you in the queue who spends 30 minutes sorting through all the available tickets with the clerk only to decide she'll take the Off Peak Return anyway Roll Eyes I'll wait for 5 maybe 10 minutes in a queue. But if I arrive at the station at 10:05 wanting the 10:18 train and can't a ticket, then I will get on that 10:18 because to wait till the 10:44 just to have that ticket is unreasonable when that has been caused my another customer.

Of course there is the UTCCR. But it's a weak argument when you have no ticket so a contract doesn't technically or formally exist.

There is also the problem of the RPIs (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) who say "You should have arrived at the station earlier" which from my point of view completely sidesteps the fundamentally basic issue here. It then becomes your word against theres and we all know where that one can go. If you arrive at a station 15 minutes before the train, is it really reasonable to say you should have arrived even earlier? Personally I don't think it is. It is also unreasonable in my opinion to cause a customer to miss a connection as they need to queue at a blockade etc. Specifcally more so at in the evening when the last train of the day could be a connection further into the journey (and yes I've had that problem before also. First Capital Connect will tell you it's not their problem!)

Finally, it's fair to say that there is a very big difference between what a customer shouldn't have to do, versus what they are expected to do or can actually do...

It's such a muddled system that really makes no sense to anyone. Just look at FGWs (First Great Western) take on NRCoC (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) Condition 12 for example... 2 sets of rules that contradict each other and FGW take the option the penalises the passenger even more! And when questioned on it, can't even be bothered to give the feedback from the manager...

Ok that might be rather harsh. But it's been nearly 3 weeks without a final response to that issue and I've now taken it further. FGW also promised a response within 5 days to an email I sent. That was over a month ago and I'd quite like my ^118.80 Travel Voucher today please Smiley
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« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2014, 21:55:00 »

Quote
You should not have to queue to buy a ticket for more than five minutes at peak times and no more than three minutes at other times. Peak time is generally considered to be between 0700 - 0900 and 1600 - 1900 Monday to Friday. Regular checks will be carried out to ensure that these standards are consistently met and any shortfall rectified

So clearly FGW (First Great Western) fail that almost every single day!!
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ellendune
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« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2014, 21:59:08 »

This is fundamentally the lack of a customer service attitude in the railway.

Railway staff seem to be very focussed on criminalising fare dodgers, but until they can fundamentally understand the reasonable expectations of their customers they just alienate the honest traveller.

If they cannot provide a means for customers to buy a ticket in a reasonable time they should have not rights of prosecution without hard evidence of a deliberate evasion. This means not use of penalty fares.

If you want to be able to prosecute then provide the service. Period!

If you will not provide the service then you have to put up with reduced ability to prosecute.

I know many rail revenue protection staff will take this very badly, but until their management provide the service it is their management that are letting them down not the passengers.
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