Train GraphicClick on the map to explore geographics
 
I need help
FAQ
Emergency
About .
Travel & transport from BBC stories as at 09:15 06 May 2024
- Starliner: Nasa to fly new craft to space station
- Eurotunnel says no queues with new travel system
- Train strikes: How May's disruption affects you
* Families' station safety plea as third woman hit
Read about the forum [here].
Register [here] - it's free.
What do I gain from registering? [here]
 18/05/24 - BRTA Westbury
22/05/24 - WWRUG / TransWilts update
02/06/24 - Summer Timetable starts
17/08/24 - Bus to Imber

On this day
6th May (1974)
First run of Clansman (link)

Train RunningCancelled
07:10 Penzance to London Paddington
08:35 Plymouth to London Paddington
09:18 London Paddington to Cardiff Central
11:32 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa
11:50 Cardiff Central to London Paddington
11:52 London Paddington to Hereford
12:35 London Paddington to Exeter St Davids
13:50 London Paddington to Great Malvern
13:59 Cheltenham Spa to London Paddington
14:01 Severn Beach to Bristol Temple Meads
14:19 Westbury to Swindon
15:04 Bristol Temple Meads to Filton Abbey Wood
15:14 Swindon to Westbury
15:18 Hereford to London Paddington
15:42 Exeter St Davids to London Paddington
15:51 Filton Abbey Wood to Bristol Temple Meads
16:32 Great Malvern to London Paddington
19:33 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill
19:47 Bristol Temple Meads to Frome
20:58 Frome to Westbury
21:28 Weymouth to Westbury
21:33 Westbury to Salisbury
21:35 Maidenhead to Marlow
22:02 Marlow to Maidenhead
22:28 London Paddington to Bristol Temple Meads
22:35 Maidenhead to Marlow
23:03 Marlow to Maidenhead
23:33 Reading to Gatwick Airport
23:50 Maidenhead to Marlow
07/05/24 00:17 Marlow to Maidenhead
07/05/24 04:45 Redhill to Gatwick Airport
07/05/24 05:11 Gatwick Airport to Reading
Short Run
07:33 Weymouth to Gloucester
08:15 Penzance to London Paddington
08:19 Taunton to Cardiff Central
08:23 Southampton Central to Bristol Temple Meads
09:59 Cardiff Central to Taunton
11:10 Gloucester to Weymouth
12:10 Weston-Super-Mare to Severn Beach
13:11 Taunton to Cardiff Central
13:32 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa
15:38 Bristol Temple Meads to Worcester Shrub Hill
15:59 Cheltenham Spa to London Paddington
16:58 London Paddington to Great Malvern
17:10 Gloucester to Weymouth
17:38 Bristol Temple Meads to Worcester Foregate Street
17:50 Gloucester to Salisbury
17:50 Penzance to London Paddington
17:55 Worcester Shrub Hill to Bristol Temple Meads
18:29 Warminster to Bristol Temple Meads
18:53 Worcester Foregate Street to Bristol Temple Meads
19:45 Great Malvern to London Paddington
19:50 Worcester Foregate Street to Bristol Temple Meads
20:06 Westbury to Cheltenham Spa
20:11 Salisbury to Bristol Temple Meads
21:00 Bristol Temple Meads to Worcester Shrub Hill
21:31 London Paddington to Cheltenham Spa
21:53 London Paddington to Worcester Shrub Hill
22:11 Salisbury to Bristol Temple Meads
23:42 Swindon to Cheltenham Spa
Delayed
05:40 Penzance to Cardiff Central
07:03 London Paddington to Paignton
08:34 London Paddington to Didcot Parkway
etc
PollsThere are no open or recent polls
Abbreviation pageAcronymns and abbreviations
Stn ComparatorStation Comparator
Rail newsNews Now - live rail news feed
Site Style 1 2 3 4
Next departures • Bristol Temple MeadsBath SpaChippenhamSwindonDidcot ParkwayReadingLondon PaddingtonMelksham
Exeter St DavidsTauntonWestburyTrowbridgeBristol ParkwayCardiff CentralOxfordCheltenham SpaBirmingham New Street
May 06, 2024, 09:30:02 *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Forgotten your username or password? - get a reminder
Most recently liked subjects
[178] Server load - 5th May 2024
[124] Okehampton-Tavistock. Discussion on reopening and potential us...
[82] New station at Ashley Down, Bristol
[70] Champion to Westbury
[36] OTD - 6 May 1994 Euro Tunnel official opening
[26] Problems with the Night Riviera sleeper - December 2014 onward...
 
News: the Great Western Coffee Shop ... keeping you up to date with travel around the South West
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Bathtub effect - trains will get less and less reliable  (Read 5379 times)
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40875



View Profile WWW Email
« on: August 06, 2007, 08:10:14 »

The "bathtub effect" is well know to the Train Operating Companies.  The graph of the reliability of rolling stock against time is like a bathtub - with high unreliability in the early days of new trains being commissioned as teething troubles are sorted out.   You then get a progressively more reliable period, but after a period of say 15 to 20 years, there's a quite steep increase in unreliability.

Naturally, good lifetime maintainance, well engineered trains, trains that were robustly constructed in the first place and major refits can extend that 15 to 20 years but in the end it is inevitable that stetching the life of stock may be s short term expedient that - in the long term - costs more.   And then you have to consider the detrimental effect on your passengers morale when trains fail in service.

Coming back up from Weymouth yesterday, we were on a "Transpennine" 3 car class 158 unit which arrived at the terminus less that 5 minutes before it was due to depart.  "Late off depot" I understand, with no explanation of why, nor any explanation of why just 3 cars (the route can take 5 and it's the busiest train of the day) nor where the 2 x 150 that had been in Weymouth on Saturday night had gone.

But anyway - I suspect some maintainance was responsible for the late start and slightly short formation. The train ran well enough - but the station stops were prolonged. Partly due to the flow on and off of the crowds, and partly because of faulty doors on the rear coach that were taking an age to close each time they were opened.  We were 10 late off Castle Cary - no big deal, save that we had an 8 minute connection there.   With a big group, though, we had arranged for the train to be held in case of delay.

"Get the conductor to phone ahead" I had been advised, and indeed I did so - and he came back with bad news.  Westbury had a platform blocked by a broken down train, services of Cardiff / Portsmouth had a number of delays, and the operational staff might have to go back on the promise made to hold the train.  We were only talking 5 minutes, damn it!  And it's a usual operation on a Sunday evening to have both trains at Westbury at the same time - it SHOULD not have been a platform issue ....

As it turned out, the Swindon train WAS held at Westbury. How much (or how little) influence our party had over the decision I simply can't tell.  But I can tell you that there were a considerable number of other people who made that change too.  The ex-Weymouth left first, and a delayed (?) 125 then drew in to the plaform vacated before we set off.

Why am I telling this story under "bathub effect"?  Because the root cause of the delays / issues was faults with older rolling stock.  If the doors had worked properly.  If the train hadn't broken down.  No issue.  The clapped out old stock is turning what should be a clockwork operation into an eventful adventure all too often, and with no modern replacements in site, I can see it only getting worse rather than better. Can someone re-assure me that my analysis is incorrect?
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
Jim
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1186


View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2007, 08:21:45 »

But even new stock fails sometimes, so it isn't that fair on our units!
Logged

Cheers
Jim Smiley
AG's most famous quote "It'll be better next week"
grahame
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 40875



View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2007, 11:17:55 »

But even new stock fails sometimes, so it isn't that fair on our units!

I agree tha everything fails from time to time, Jim - in fact very new stock is more prone to failure than stock that has "bedded in" ... but then it tends to get less reliable with age.  Everything fails sometimes, but I've see statistics of "once every 40,000 miles" for some items, and "once every 2000 miles" for others - that's a 20:1 ratio.
Logged

Coffee Shop Admin, Acting Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, Option 24/7 Melksham Rep
BandHcommuter
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 180


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2007, 12:25:05 »

Historically, passenger rolling stock has had an operating life of 30 - 40 years, so it is entirely possible that classes 150/158/165/166 will be around for another 20 years. We have another 8 years before HSTs (High Speed Train) are replaced, so they will be 35-40 years old.

Interestingly, (according to something I read in Modern Railways magazine a couple of years ago), the old slam door trains on the Southern region were some of the most reliable on the network when they were withdrawn, and they were pushing 40 years. Not much to go wrong on these I suppose. The same article showed that units of the same type and age could have very different reliability results on different TOCs (Train Operating Company) (I think the example was Silverlink and Great Eastern). This suggests that maintenance regimes are more effective in some areas than others.

It would be interesting to see how FGW (First Great Western)'s rolling stock reliability compares with other TOCs running similar stock types.
Logged
simonw
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 591


View Profile Email
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2007, 13:24:45 »

The replacement of HST (High Speed Train) trains has been postponed a number of times for financial reason, not operational reasons.

The idea that a train fleet can justifiably be kept for 35-40 years is laughable. I am not qualified to provide an expected lifespan for rolling stock, so I will not try and guess, but,

  • Train design regarding safety has trained dramatically in the past 40 years. What would the accident toll have been in Cumbria if Virgin had used an HST?
  • Environmental efficiency of 40 year trains compared to modern trains is not good.
  • Maintenance costs of older stocker are significant.
  • Refurbishment can address many issues, but there is a limit to improvements that can be made for the money available

Many people have a nostalgic view of old trains, but should this have any part in a modern rail network? I think not!

We need a reliable, fast, clean rail system. Old rolling stock suffering from continued breakdowns, power failures, heating failures, air conditioning failures, non-working doors is not the way forward.
Logged
Lee
Transport Scholar
Hero Member
******
Posts: 7519


GBR - The Emperor's New Rail Network


View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2007, 15:34:17 »

But anyway - I suspect some maintainance was responsible for the late start and slightly short formation. The train ran well enough - but the station stops were prolonged. Partly due to the flow on and off of the crowds, and partly because of faulty doors on the rear coach that were taking an age to close each time they were opened.  We were 10 late off Castle Cary - no big deal, save that we had an 8 minute connection there.   With a big group, though, we had arranged for the train to be held in case of delay.

According to the FGW (First Great Western) Changes To The Service Level Commitment letter (Page 38 of the link below) , it is proposed to increase the station dwell times to provide realistic station allowances on the Weymouth line.
http://www.saveseverntunnel.co.uk/FirstGW%202007%20Draft%20Timetable%20for%20comments.pdf

The clapped out old stock is turning what should be a clockwork operation into an eventful adventure all too often, and with no modern replacements in site, I can see it only getting worse rather than better.

Quote from a recent DfT» (Department for Transport - about) press release (link below) :
http://www.gnn.gov.uk/environment/fullDetail.asp?ReleaseID=302338&NewsAreaID=2&NavigatedFromDepartment=False

"Major improvements include 1,300 new carriages for the busiest trains across England and Wales. This will include extra carriages on services in the Bristol area."

No info as to when they will be delivered / how many there will be and on what services they will be deployed. FGW didnt seem to know anything about it when I asked them , and they said that they await the details with "considerable interest."

Interestingly, (according to something I read in Modern Railways magazine a couple of years ago), the old slam door trains on the Southern region were some of the most reliable on the network when they were withdrawn, and they were pushing 40 years. Not much to go wrong on these I suppose.

I remember SWT (South West Trains) saying that their slam door trains were effectively "boxes on wheels" with none of the complex technology that could go wrong on the newer trains.
Logged

Vous devez ĂȘtre impitoyable, parce que ces gens sont des salauds - https://looka.com/s/78722877
Do you have something you would like to add to this thread, or would you like to raise a new question at the Coffee Shop? Please [register] (it is free) if you have not done so before, or login (at the top of this page) if you already have an account - we would love to read what you have to say!

You can find out more about how this forum works [here] - that will link you to a copy of the forum agreement that you can read before you join, and tell you very much more about how we operate. We are an independent forum, provided and run by customers of Great Western Railway, for customers of Great Western Railway and we welcome railway professionals as members too, in either a personal or official capacity. Views expressed in posts are not necessarily the views of the operators of the forum.

As well as posting messages onto existing threads, and starting new subjects, members can communicate with each other through personal messages if they wish. And once members have made a certain number of posts, they will automatically be admitted to the "frequent posters club", where subjects not-for-public-domain are discussed; anything from the occasional rant to meetups we may be having ...

 
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.2 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
This forum is provided by customers of Great Western Railway (formerly First Great Western), and the views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that the content provided by one of our posters contravenes our posting rules (email link to report). Forum hosted by Well House Consultants

Jump to top of pageJump to Forum Home Page