Swindon to Reading

[whole diary]

[Zoe]

Hi, does anyone know why there is no day return fair for this journey of just over 30 minutes?

[devon_metro]

West of Didcot are "Intercity" stations (back from the days of BR^▸ (British Rail(ways))) and therefore have a different pricing structure.

[super tm]

Yes but it will take a long time.

It all started way back, a long, long time back etc

Historically short journeys of up to about 20 minutes had a day return ticket - longer journeys had an open tyoe ticket. So for example Chippenham to Bath Spa only has day return but Swindon to Reading has the Off Peak (Open) Return.

But wait a minute you say what about Oxford to London that is about an hour but has Peak and Off Peak day return tickets.  Well back in the 1980's the railways around London were all run under one brand Network Southeast by a nice bloke by the name of Chris Green.  He wanted to encourage off peak travel  so off peak day returns were introduced across the area.  However Swindon was not in the Network Southeast area so no day return was introduced.

It was about this time that Peak tickets from Oxford became Day tickets not Open tickets because he abolished all barrier checks.  Whilst this was nice for the passenger it was not very good for revenue control as on the busy trains in the peak it was not physically possible to check tickets on the train and open tickets could thus be reused the next day !  thus the only more than one day return from Oxford to Paddington is off peak when in theory it should be possible to check the ticket on the train. Of course barriers have now been reintroduced  but that is another story !

So really it is a historically reason that you cant get an Off Peak day return from Swindon to Reading.  Hope that helps but probably raises more questions that it answers. 

[vacman]

I never knew Chris Green was responsible for the farcical open stations policy!

[Btline]

Could someone explain the open station policy.

I take it, once upon time there were barriers at all stations, but I thought this was stop after Beeching (staff cuts etc.).

LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) could certainly do with more barriers (e.g. at Worcester) because they rarlely check tickets, or check them after the next station, so they loose some money.

And this new fares system is dreadful. I went on NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast)'s website, and there are several "Off peak returns" all at a different price, all with different trains they are valid on. Ditto with the "Super off peak" and presumably with the "Super Super Off peaks." And first class tickets look even worse....

[Tim]

Open stations probably made sense at the time.  Fares were lower so revenue loss was lower also and passengers were not delayed by barriers.  They also enabled staff cuts year on year which BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) could report to the government as evidence of its efficiency.  Open stations are the norm in most of Europe so their must be logic to them under some circumstances.  Things have changed however in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), tickets are more expensive and more complicated, companies are more profit driven and the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) now like barriers because it allows them to demonstrate to the government that they are efficient in collecting fares.   I suspect that another advantage of barriers is that agressive and occasionally violent passengers without tickets are easier to deal with on the platform than on the train where the staff member checking tcikets is somewhat trapped.  Also trains are more crowded and on train staff seem to be more busy with other things (at least on some routes/ TOCs) so on-train checks have suffered.

Personally, I'd like to see open stations with good on-train checks and ontrain ticket sales (perhaps with a small surcharge).  If I can buy my ticket on the train and don't have barriers, my door to door journey becomes 5 minutes quicker because I can arrive at the station later.  Millions of pounds can be spent on shaving 5 minutes off a journey by re-signalling or relaying the track and I sometimes wonder if the powers that be have considered that similar time saving can be achieved at possible lower costs (in lost revenue) by abolishing barriers and selling tickets on the train (or by opening up more station entrances, or improving parking, or retiming connections).  At the very least money spent on better and more barriers and better and easier ticket selling facilities (both staff and machines) so as to reduce queing ought to be justifiable in terms of door-to-door journey time reductions, but as far as I know the kind of analysis where costs are weight against time savings is only carried out for infrastructure upgrades.

At Oldfield park, for example,  putting a ticket machine on both platforms would save time for many passengers by removing the need to travel to the other platform to buy a ticket.  A ticket machine costs about ^40,000 which doesn't buy you much infrastructure upgrade, but it would save perhaps 30% or passengers perhaps 3 minutes every day.  Surely this investment would have a huge benefit/cost ratio if such a calculation were done.   

Very roughly 170,000 passengers per year.  Say half (85,000) not on seasons and say 25,000 are starting journey on platform without ticket machine.  They all have to wake up 3 minutes earlier = 75,000 minutes wasted pa. =~1250 hours wastest pa.  If time is valued at ^10 per hour, money wastest by not having ticket machine = ^12,500 pa.  ticket machine would pay for itself in about 3 years.  How many infrastructure upgrade have such a short pay-back time?  This does not take into account the impact the machine would have when the first machine is brocken or the extra tickets sold to people who currently hop on the train without paying rather than buy a ticket and wait an hur for the next one. 

[Btline]

I think that all major stations should be barriered. If the line is long enough it should be ok.

EVERY station (except tiny halts in the highlands perhaps) that is not barriered should have ticket machines on all entrances/platforms.

Plus a sign saying "Buy before you board" and "Be fair, pay your fare" etc.

Then an immediate fine for anyone who boards a train with no ticket.

There is no way on even lightly loaded train, that a Guard can get through a train, selling tickets to everyone before the next stop.

However, if the above was applied, ALL/ most people would have tickets, so a complete check could be made and the guard could return to other duties/ check for request stops etc.

[Tim]

I think that all major stations should be barriered. If the line is long enough it should be ok.

But the barrier line is rarely long enough.  Sometime this is because their is not enough space in the building, but mostly it is because barries are installed on the cheap and in a hurry. 

The barriers at BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI)) are a pain in the rush hour and yet there is plenty of space to extend the line and add say 4 extra barriers which would solve the problem of waiting.  Even if you have enough gates in theory you have to remember in practice that one might be broken, another facing the wrong way and another blocked by a staff member standing in the wrong place (often unavoidably as there isn't anywhere sensible for them to stand) or a passenger who can't find their ticket.  At somewhere like Bath which has about 6 gates you can easy find only 1 or 2 available for use which is not enough when 200 people arrive at them at once. 

At Oxford the instalation of barriers were accompanied with closing the Westside exit.  If you want to get out this side of the station you now have to use the overbridge, walk through the barriers and cycle rack area and then cross the railway again on a dangerously narriw pavement under an overbridge.  With luggage, a bike or pushchair this is a signifiant inconvenience and will add 5 minutes to your journey. 

I'd be less anti-barriers if they were implemented properly.  The current policy seems to be barriers at any cost with little though given to inconveniencing customers.  Sure the barriers don't cause major delays or inconvenience but they will annoy passengers and mean that they leave the railway with an negative view of it.  It is exactly the same damaging effect to operators reputation that banning liquids on flights has.  Its not a major inconvenince but just one more bit of hassle added to the journey. 

I accept that the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) has an absolute right to check tickets on trains and at stations, in the same why that the police have the right to stop your car and check its licence, but if your car was stopped every single day for this check even if it only added 1 minute to your commute each way, you would be annoyed wouldn't you.  The police would be acting legally but the minor hassle would be an annoyance and added to all the other hassles of driving it might tip you over the edge and make you decide not to drive.

There is no way on even lightly loaded train, that a Guard can get through a train, selling tickets to everyone before the next stop.

I am not sure that I agree with you here.  When I started travelling on the 7:41 Bath- London about 7 years ago you could buy a full price open return on the train (which used to run non-stop between Swindon and Paddington).  About 10 people per coach did this including me and out of perhaps 200 journeys made before barriers are installed and this option removed, I only arrive at Paddington without a ticket ONCE! (and bought a ticket on arrival because a) I am a good boy, and b) I knew I'd be checked on the return leg away).  Now as a cynic I'd say that the guard was always good at checking tickets because he got a commission on each of a pricey tickets he sold.  More recently the chance of getting a ticket checked on this train (now 7:42) is about 60% and mostly the train arrives at an unbarried platform at Paddington s some people must be getting away without paying and others must be getting penalty fares and others prosecuted for evasion!  A system that was civilised and worked well for everyone has been replaced by one which is based on fines, threats of prosecution, confrontation and ill feeling all round.  If I has a guard I'd much rather spend my time selling tickets than issuing penalty fares.

[willc]

At Oxford the instalation of barriers were accompanied with closing the Westside exit.  If you want to get out this side of the station you now have to use the overbridge, walk through the barriers and cycle rack area and then cross the railway again on a dangerously narriw pavement under an overbridge.  With luggage, a bike or pushchair this is a signifiant inconvenience and will add 5 minutes to your journey.

Not strictly true. The exit to west Oxford from platform 2 is still open in the morning and evening peaks on weekdays to ticketholders and is usually staffed by one of the gateline team to check tickets of passengers entering and leaving the station. Don't think it is open at the weekend though, but I rarely go into Oxford then and am going into town (through the main entrance) if I do, rather than work (which is west of the station).

As for the pavement, I and most people leaving the main station building instead cross the road on the footbridge to the car park and then use the considerably wider pavement on the other side of the road under the tracks. This pavement is at a higher level than the road and has its own little brick tunnel.

I really don't know what your problem with barriers is either. Sure, the tickets don't open them occasionally but 99 times out of 100 I just walk through without breaking my stride. I find people who haven't paid for a ticket far more annoying - such as those chancing their arm riding from London to Charlbury on Friday evening peak services departing from non-gated platforms and hoping there won't be a ticket check. The full barrier line at Paddington can't come soon enough.

[John R]

I'm happy to put up with the barriers at BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI)) if they reduce ticketless travel. OK, in the morning rush hour you might have to wait 30 secs, maybe a minute, if a couple of trains have arrived at once, but it always looks worse than the actual wait turns out to be.

[Btline]

I agree with both Willc and John R, barriers do not slow you down that much.

[simonw]

Hi

It depends on the number of passengers and the number of working gates in your direction.

Entering a station is never a problem, but if you want to see a queue, visit BPW^» (Bristol Parkway - next trains) at 17:40 any day, especially if the Cross Country Train from BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI)) to Manchester has just stopped. Frequently two or three gates have to handle over a 100+ passengers, and many of these passengers have tickets that do not scan (mobile phones are great for that).

I do believe that gates are needed, but

• enough gates must be working to handle the passenger flow
• there should be space to the left and right of a set of gates for a FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Platform employee to help without blocking a gate
• Signs must be in place to advice passengers which gate to use if they have oversized luggage.

[willc]

It depends on the number of passengers and the number of working gates in your direction.

But that's not the fault of the gates, that's the fault of poor station design and positioning of gates. I rarely go near Parkway, but seem to recall on my last visit that the gateline was across the footbridge - obviously not a place where there's much space to fit many gates across, which is plainly daft and leads to the problem you describe. Station redesign might be in order to solve it.

[Electric train]

A member of a project team installing ticket barriers told me that they pay for themselves withing 3 months, which I can quite believe seeing the number of people collared by ticket inspectors at Paddington when they started to introduce the new line on the suburbans, it got that bad with some so called customers trying to dodge the fare that the Police had to be in support.

[Zoe]

The turn up and go fares from Swindon to Reading and Paddington are very expensive though and even more so since the Super Saver was scrapped in 2006.  I think there should be cheaper day return fares to Reading and Paddington but I know this is not very likely with the profit driven system we have now.