Clan Line
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« on: June 10, 2020, 12:47:10 » |
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There was an article on the BBC» website yesterday wondering for how much longer the UK▸ would need to import coal, following the news that Britain has not burnt any coal in its power stations for 2 months.
If we do not need to import coal for power stations any more, will it be economically viable to import it for heritage steam locomotive use ? Would it be possible to burn wood in our steam locos, or is this too much of a spark hazard ? Oil would be one solution but how long before that is no longer needed ? Could our steam railways (and any other coal users) support a small UK based coal mine ?
Any thoughts ?
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ellendune
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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2020, 13:11:55 » |
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There will still be a need for a small amount of coal to make coke for steelmaking so I do not imagine that supplies will dry up.
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didcotdean
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« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2020, 14:22:14 » |
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There is also the new (and controversial) coal mine being developed near Whitehaven, although all the output is destined to become coke for steel.
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stuving
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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2020, 14:25:54 » |
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If you need real working heritage coal for your real working heritage steam engine, shouldn't it come from a real working heritage coal mine?
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broadgage
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« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2020, 16:25:57 » |
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There will always be a need for some coal, whether imported or produced domestically, for iron and steel manufacture. It should be simple to use a little for heritage railways. There is also a modest but ongoing demand for coal for domestic heating and cooking. The domestic use of traditional housecoal has been/is about to be banned, but anthracite and coal derived patent fuels are still permitted. It should be simple to use a little of this coal for heritage railways.
Also coal burning for electric power production is unlikely to permanently end just yet. It is expected to resume in the winter, and for the next few winters. It should be simple to divert a little of this power station coal for heritage railway use. Electricity from coal is declining rapidly but is most unlikely to become totally extinct just yet.
Farriers and blacksmiths will also need coal in modest volumes for the foreseeable future, supply to heritage railways could be combined with supplying this market.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard. It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc. A 5 car DMU▸ is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2020, 16:34:39 » |
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Will a shrinking market mean increased costs though?
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To view my GWML▸ Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
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broadgage
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« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2020, 21:13:52 » |
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Yes, I expect costs to rise as coal demand falls. Not by that much though, imports of a few thousand tons a year should not cost much more per ton than importing millions of tons. If just 100,000 households burn coal, and each one uses on average a ton a year, that is 100,000 tons a year. Add to that the demand for iron and steel production, and other uses.
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A proper intercity train has a minimum of 8 coaches, gangwayed throughout, with first at one end, and a full sized buffet car between first and standard. It has space for cycles, surfboards,luggage etc. A 5 car DMU▸ is not a proper inter-city train. The 5+5 and 9 car DMUs are almost as bad.
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Witham Bobby
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« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2020, 14:45:50 » |
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Not all coal is suitable for steam locomotive fireboxes. Different classes of locos need different coals, too. Locos of The Great Western Railway were designed to work with the anthracite coal of the Welsh collieries. I've had experience of firing the small shallow grates on GW▸ locos with the proper stuff, and with substitute material from Yorkshire, Scotland and Russia. lets just say the job works well with the designed-for fuel, and leave it there.
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eXPassenger
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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2020, 18:22:00 » |
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Yes, I expect costs to rise as coal demand falls. Not by that much though, imports of a few thousand tons a year should not cost much more per ton than importing millions of tons. If just 100,000 households burn coal, and each one uses on average a ton a year, that is 100,000 tons a year. Add to that the demand for iron and steel production, and other uses.
Bear in mind that the average size of a bulk carrier is 150,000 tonnes so you are talking of under 1 ship a year for domestic usage.
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Celestial
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« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2020, 19:20:08 » |
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Yes, I expect costs to rise as coal demand falls. Not by that much though, imports of a few thousand tons a year should not cost much more per ton than importing millions of tons. If just 100,000 households burn coal, and each one uses on average a ton a year, that is 100,000 tons a year. Add to that the demand for iron and steel production, and other uses.
Bear in mind that the average size of a bulk carrier is 150,000 tonnes so you are talking of under 1 ship a year for domestic usage. I'm not sure the typical coal burning household will use a ton each year, as it tends to be a "nice to have" to make the house feel welcoming, rather than a "must have used all the time" through winter. We probably get through about a third of a ton each winter on that basis. Though I suspect there are more than 100,000 householders still burning it on a discretional basis.
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Robin Summerhill
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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2020, 19:23:09 » |
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Not all coal is suitable for steam locomotive fireboxes. Different classes of locos need different coals, too. Locos of The Great Western Railway were designed to work with the anthracite coal of the Welsh collieries. I've had experience of firing the small shallow grates on GW▸ locos with the proper stuff, and with substitute material from Yorkshire, Scotland and Russia. lets just say the job works well with the designed-for fuel, and leave it there.
This was a problem in the 1950s, let alone now, and was one of the reasons why Swindon Works involved themselves in improved draughting arrangements etc. In short, when all you can get hold of is coal dust stuck together with cement you still need the engines to steam. I admit that I am a bit of an armchair inexpert on the finer points but, as the majority of railway coal being burnt these days is to keep relatiively light loads going at a maximum of 25mph. the coal quality is unlikely to have any serious problems attached to it. Until you get to dropping the fire after a day's work, that is... Main line steam working would of course be a different matter
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eightf48544
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« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2020, 10:36:30 » |
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Looking back with hindsight we as a nation possibly made the wrong decision to go for large coal fired baseload power station based mostly around the Trent and Calder.
But one of the less well known successess of the Beeching plan was the MGR trains which served these stations with home dug coal direct from a local colliery to the power station. Where the train was unloaded on the move. For rail the ideal traffic. These ran up until fairly recently but unfortuantely latterly with imported coal from Hunterston? in Scotland to Yorkshire via the S&C▸ .
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Clan Line
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« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2020, 11:54:36 » |
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Bear in mind that the average size of a bulk carrier is 150,000 tonnes so you are talking of under 1 ship a year for domestic usage.
Which commercial port is going to keep/maintain the coal bulk handling infrastructure to unload 1 ship per year ?
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WSW Frome
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« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2020, 14:44:24 » |
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An item in the June "Railway Magazine" examines the quite major issues that could affect the supply of loco coal in the near future UK▸ for use in the heritage fleet. In essence, UK sources could easily disappear and there are problems of importing the right kind of coal, suitably sized etc. This would need to be handled in some bulk for economies of scale and therefore would somehow need to be co-ordinated across the whole heritage sector - at a somewhat higher cost overall.
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2020, 18:30:59 » |
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Bear in mind that the average size of a bulk carrier is 150,000 tonnes so you are talking of under 1 ship a year for domestic usage.
Which commercial port is going to keep/maintain the coal bulk handling infrastructure to unload 1 ship per year ? Does it require different infrastructure to handling bulk ores?
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Waiting at Pilning for the midnight sleeper to Prague.
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