Network Rail to consider Major New Rail Lines

[whole diary]

[Btline]

But D/M, there is already is a route proposed to Plymouth in the plans! I am simply talking about the link line between the propsed lines.

Ditto for the North, it would join the proposed network around York, and would then travel on the new ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) to Scotland.

Sorry for my un clear post!

[swlines]

The problem with your idea is that the average XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) journey is about 60 miles - which isn't too far when you consider it and so a high speed line would probably cause demand to drop on XC trains, while the conventional replacements (there will have to be some) would have severe overcrowding no doubt.

[Btline]

Um... average journey time 60 miles?? What about holiday makers going from Scotland to the south coast etc.

I do not think your figures are valid.

Lets take out shorter distance commuters who would continue to use the normal network.

I bet that increases your average!

Then we will have  all the people tempted away from the motorways and airports. Guess how far they will be travelling? Yes, long distance.

So that "average" will be much higher.

Plus shorter distance passengers/commuters will have less overcrowding.

So this route would be a win win for all.

[swlines]

Um... average journey time 60 miles?? What about holiday makers going from Scotland to the south coast etc.

I do not think your figures are valid.

Lets take out shorter distance commuters who would continue to use the normal network.

Shorter distance commuters provide the most amount of revenue for the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) franchise I suspect.

I bet that increases your average!

I bet it does too, but you lose revenue out of it through ORCATS^▸ (Operational Research Computerised Allocation of Tickets to Services).

Then we will have  all the people tempted away from the motorways and airports. Guess how far they will be travelling? Yes, long distance.

Most air travel nowadays from places such as Heathrow is abroad so I don't think you'll be taking much traffic from there. Unless you plan to integrate transport far better with Heathrow (which it needs certainly for rail).

So that "average" will be much higher.

If you don't believe a figure which the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) released ages ago then I don't believe you're human.

Plus shorter distance passengers/commuters will have less overcrowding.

Depends on the area, for instance if someone is commuting from perhaps Cheltenham to Longbridge each day - they will still use the high speed network and just change at Birmingham New Street.

So this route would be a win win for all.

Nothing is as clear-cut as you make it.

[willc]

If anything does happen, it will certainly be a case of all rails lead to London, because that's where the money is, and these trains will never make lots of stops, just look at the French and German high-speed routes.

If a high-speed line were built on the Chiltern Line corridor, with a branch off to Oxford, the Oxford services would probably run non-stop to/from London, or maybe fit in Bicester on the way - rather like the Kent high-speed commuter services planned for next year, many of which will be first stop at Ashford. Heading north, the first stop would likely be a Parkway, also offering local rail connections, somewhere in the vicinity of Leamington, Kenilworth or Coventry, then on to Birmingham.

But by taking longer-haul passengers off the traditional routes, you make life on those lines easier, and can even speed up trains, because you're not having to pack so many services along them.

Just as much of the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) network is a 'commuter' railway, the same is true for CrossCountry but it lacks the tidal flows of peak hour, premium-rate traffic that the main lines into London pull in - which is just as true of the French example, perhaps more so. Just look at all the TGVs^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) lined up in the depots on the approaches to Paris terminals during the middle of the day, which are then wheeled out and coupled on to the single sets that have been running around off-peak

[Btline]

I am talking about domestic air travel such as Newcastle to Bristol etc.

A line would reduce such travel by 80% depending on the pricing (the opening of the TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) from Paris to Lyon did this overnight).

I believe the figures. But I am simply taking out commuters, and adding in long distance passengers (those who would have flown, or driven) - this makes the average miles value higher.

The demand, I think when you switch domestic air travel over, is there.

-------------------------

Why not call the London to B'ham service at Warwick Parkway (image of all Cotswold Line passengers binning FGW^▸ (First Great Western) ) !?

[John R]

Yes, but for the economics of a HSL to work, you need train fulls of passengers to switch from air to rail. There are only a handful of flights from Bristol to Newcastle, compared with many tens between Scotland and London.

[Karl]

Evening

I see that Cornwall has been left out completely
in this list and we do have XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) services, so to
carry on the limited stops I think it should go:
Dept Penzance then:

St. Erth
Redruth
Truro
Par
Bodmin
Liskeard

With occasional stops at Camborne and St. Austell.
As it was "Cross Country" or XC that was mentioned
in message bellow, I have added the obvious stops
for branch connections as XC basically shifts
tourists about especially in the summer, but I
suppose some of these could also be missed out on
one or two services or altenate them?

Your list from Plymouth and then:

Newcastle.  I think it should really be added to
this list, as connections for Berwick, Sunderland,
Durham and Carlisle.

Regards

Karl.

I disagree. A high speed line linking the spokes
of the London wheel i.e. cross country route
linking the other proposed lines from Taunton to
York. However, it should have limited stop(s) at
the following places:

FROM PLYMOUTH...
*Taunton
*Bristol
*Cheltenham or Gloucester, or joint station
*Worcester
*Birmingham
*Derby or Nottingham
*Sheffield
*Leeds
*York
...TO SCOTLAND

[Lee]

An interesting take on trains vs planes from the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) (link below.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7470907.stm

[willc]

Why not call the London to B'ham service at Warwick Parkway (image of all Cotswold Line passengers binning FGW^▸ (First Great Western) ) !?

The beauty of TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse)/ICE/AVE etc is that they can run on (electrified) ordinary railways as well, unlike pie-in-the-sky Maglev schemes. Demand in the towns in eastern France served by TGVs branching off the recently-opened LGV^▸ (Large Goods Vehicle) Est is booming, by all accounts.

Greengauge21 (see www.greengauge21.net) a group which has been working on its own plan for an HSL from London out to Heathrow and on the Chiltern/M40 corridor to Birmingham Airport (with a branch into the city) and the North West is suggesting a branch to Bicester and Oxford, so you could belt along at 140mph (speed of the Kent commuter trains starting next year) to Oxford, then potter off to Worcester up the Cotswold Line if the wires went up. I should think London-Oxford in 30 minutes would be an achieveable timing.

But a stopping pattern like the one below on a high-speed line would give a French rail manager kittens. The whole point of Lignes a Grand Vitesse is the vitesse. The services branching off the LGV Est mostly run flat out to/from Paris from the junctions (and I think there is just one station between Paris and Lille on the LGV Nord). More stops equals time wasted braking and accelerating. Lots of stops is the nature of CrossCountry's routes, due to, as has been previously noted, most people making shortish journeys. How many people actually travel thoughout on the Dundee-Penzance type services?

FROM PLYMOUTH...
*Taunton
*Bristol
*Cheltenham or Gloucester, or joint station
*Worcester
*Birmingham
*Derby or Nottingham
*Sheffield
*Leeds
*York
...TO SCOTLAND

[woody]

Could the timing of this announcement be anything to do with labour realising that they will loose the next general election.  It will then be up to the Tories to cancel the lines (which they may have to do if the economy is still in a mess) .

Given Labours record of rail investment on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) since they came to power I have to agree.Just more pre-election postering I think from a Government eager to save their political necks..Heard it all before.More studies,more CONsultants fees.The only thing we will get in the west is more of the same time the powerful road and air lobbys lean on whoever is in power.
  All governments promise the earth prior to elections only to be overtaken by events later on and the west railways over the years seem to have been an easy government target when things start going wrong.

[willc]

Could the timing of this announcement be anything to do with labour realising that they will loose the next general election.  It will then be up to the Tories to cancel the lines (which they may have to do if the economy is still in a mess) .
Given Labours record of rail investment on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) since they came to power I have to agree.Just more pre-election postering I think from a Government eager to save their political necks..Heard it all before.More studies,more CONsultants fees.The only thing we will get in the west is more of the same time the powerful road and air lobbys lean on whoever is in power.
  All governments promise the earth prior to elections only to be overtaken by events later on and the west railways over the years seem to have been an easy government target when things start going wrong.

This is an unjustified slur on Iain Coucher - it implies he is some sort of Government poodle, which is far from the truth. A joint Network Rail/ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) letter backing work on a new electrification programme last November reportedly caused panic in the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) - with senior civil servants being hauled out of meetings to find out what was going on, since Mr Coucher was not parroting the absurd proposition that diesel was the power source for years to come, which the DfT clung to until a matter of weeks ago, in the face of all the evidence.

If anything, it looks to me that he is trying to take the issue out of the hands of politicians, of whatever colour, and get some sort of long-term development programme in place - something that has been lacking in Britain since long before privatisation. In France, Germany and Spain, there have been national and cross-party consensuses since the early 1980s that their high-speed rail programmes are a good thing, which is why there has been sustained development of their networks for years.

[woody]

This is an unjustified slur on Iain Coucher - it implies he is some sort of Government poodle, which is far from the truth.

If anything, it looks to me that he is trying to take the issue out of the hands of politicians, of whatever colour, and get some sort of long-term development programme in place - something that has been lacking in Britain since long before privatisation. In France, Germany and Spain, there have been national and cross-party consensuses since the early 1980s that their high-speed rail programmes are a good thing, which is why there has been sustained development of their networks for years.
[/quote]
My remarks were not aimed at anyone in the rail industry least of all Iain Coucher.Given the high level of public support from the tax payer for the railways governments will always have the last word on infrastructure investment and therein lies the problem in this country.Historically when the going gets tough Government spending on the railways has always suffered.Whether that cycle continues to repeat itself only time will tell.Hopefully it wont but I would not put money it.

[Trowres]

Let's take a step back from arguments about where high speed lines should go and whether or not political posturing is taking place.

Think of a figure for what a network of high speed lines will cost. Let's call it X billion.

Now think of the journeys that you make. Think of where the price of petrol is now, and where it may be in twenty years time. Think of what other pressures there may be on life in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).

If you had X billion pounds to spend on transport - would Paddington-Temple Meads at 180mph be top of *your* priority list?

[tramway]

I would think so, a quote from UWE

^ the total cost of [road] congestion is usually estimated at ^20 billion a year.

What is that figure going to look like if nothing is done.

I would have thought rails contribution to reduce this cost to the British economy would be very welcomed by any party. The rail industry really needs to fight as dirty as road and air lobbys if anything Ian Coucher comes up with is to be implemented.