FirstGroup win InterCity West Coast Franchise

[whole diary]

[broadgage]

Perhaps I am being unduly pessimistic.
I have however suffered over the years from rather a lot of railway "improvements".

Withdrawal of 8 car slam door units on the Catford loop line, and replacement by 4 car or 6 car networkers with consequent standing when I would have got a seat on the old trains. We now often get 8 car class 319s, which is a belated improvement but does not excuse the years of overcrowded, new shorter trains.

Withdrawal of full length loco hauled services on the Waterloo to Exeter services, and replacement by 3 car DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) with consequent overcrowding. (and yes I know that most services are longer than 3 car NOW, but I had a year of standing on 3 car trains when I would have got a seat on the old trains)

And more recently of course the great western "improved" HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) with reduced or minmal catering and more bus seats.

Elswhere on the railway there has been the appalling downgrade of Liverpool street services from 12 car to 8 car. Fortunatly I seldom use that route, but was disgusted when I had to.

In all the above cases, the railway industry talked of improvements, yet it seemed worse.

The withdrawal of slam door door units could have been postponned until sufficient new trains were available to run full length services, but not likely ! just run shorter trains and make people stand, it is called progress you know.

On the Waterloo to Exeter route, there is no real reason why a few loco hauled trains could not have continued for years, even up to today if need be, thereby ensuring that the DMU services could have been longer with seats for all.
Not likey though !
The prevailing view seemed to be that full length loco hauled trains were bad, and the 3 car DMUs were good. Any complaints about standing for hours were answered by stating that one should book a seat.

And for Virgin cross country, as it is still widely known, it is generally believed that they received a vast subsidy to halve the length of the trains.

It is of course possible that I am being unduly negative, and that lessons have been learnt from previous improvements.
Perhaps the new inter city trains will be long enough, with tables, luggage space, leg room and generally similar internaly to older types.
Perhaps First groups proposed alterations will make voyagers and pendolinos more comfortable and not worse.

Previous events do not however fill me with optimism.

[grahame]

On the Waterloo to Exeter route, there is no real reason why a few loco hauled trains could not have continued for years, even up to today if need be, thereby ensuring that the DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) services could have been longer with seats for all.

The prevailing view seemed to be that full length loco hauled trains were bad, and the 3 car DMUs were good. Any complaints about standing for hours were answered by stating that one should book a seat.

Err ... can you book seats on any SWT^▸ (South West Trains) services ??

[eightf48544]

I believe you can I am sure friends from Axminister who travel to clapham Junction say they get reserved seats if they buy in advanced from the web. Usually Chiltern, on my recommendation, as the least worse TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company). 

[grahame]

I believe you can I am sure friends from Axminister who travel to clapham Junction say they get reserved seats if they buy in advanced from the web. Usually Chiltern, on my recommendation, as the least worse TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company). 

I was looking at http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/booking_horizons.html -

South West Trains do not offer seat reservations but have quota controlled advance purchase products.

perhaps that only applies to Advanced tickets, and you can book on an open type ticket or if you require extra assistance?

[paul7575]

SWT^▸ (South West Trains) only issue specific 'train reservations' with Advance fares; but they do not indicate a seat number anymore.  

Normal seat reservations ceased on the Exeter and Weymouth routes at the time the hourly Exeter service started.

Paul

[broadgage]

On the Waterloo to Exeter route, there is no real reason why a few loco hauled trains could not have continued for years, even up to today if need be, thereby ensuring that the DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) services could have been longer with seats for all.

The prevailing view seemed to be that full length loco hauled trains were bad, and the 3 car DMUs were good. Any complaints about standing for hours were answered by stating that one should book a seat.

Err ... can you book seats on any SWT^▸ (South West Trains) services ??

Not now, AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know).
But at the time that the new shorter trains were introduced, bookings were permitted.
There were many complaints about 3 car trains replacing 8 car on summer saturdays, and rather than run longer trains, SWT simply marked most services as "seat reservations recomended" in the timetable.

[vacman]

I travel on the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) WoE route a lot and don't think I've ever seen a 159 overcrowded West of Woking.

[The Grecian]

3 carriage 159s are quite commonly overcrowded between Exeter and Axminster or between Yeovil and Salisbury in my experience. 6 carriage trains heading east are often 70-80%ish full before Salisbury.

Loco-hauled trains couldn't have continued before the 159s turned up because their reliability rate was woeful. This was partly due to the fact that they were worked into the ground and partly because no loco hauled train has been particularly suitable for the line since it was turned from an express to a semi-fast route. The nature of the route west of Salisbury demands a rapid acceleration and rapid deceleration from 0-85mph and back approximately every 10 miles, with plenty of hill climbing. The stations between Salisbury and Honiton are all relatively well-used so skipping stops isn't going to happen even ignoring the limitations of single line working. It puts a lot of strain on one loco, compared to a multiple unit.

Granted the original substitution of 8 carriage trains with 3 carriage trains at the same frequency could have been better handled, particularly as some trains seemed to lose the middle carriage at times and go down to 2. However most regular passengers on the WoE route seem perfectly happy with the 159s given their far superior reliability to the 50 and 47 hauled services which preceded them.

[JayMac]

And more recently of course the great western "improved" HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) with reduced or minmal catering and more bus seats.

Concede the point on catering. That has steadily worsened over the life of the franchise, although pockets of excellence (Pullman, Travelling Chef) remain.

But, as a regular user of HSTs I've yet to find these mythical bus seats you are always wittering on about, broadgage. Can you point me to a bus that has seats with flip down tables suitable for a laptop, access to a power socket, a moveable armrest, and a design that promotes good posture with ample leg room?

Show me the bus that has all that and I'll eat my hat. (That's bus remember - your inference broadgage, so no pictures of the interior of a First Group Greyhound coach thanks  )

[Andy W]

Remember, these are dedicated inter-city stock and are not performing duties similar to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) which act as London - Thames Valley commuter trains as well as inter-city trains.

As ever an astute observation BNM. When First took over the Inter-City routes in 1998 they inherited rolling stock designed for that purpose and ran very much in that manner. There was a clear distinction between First (Inter City) & Thames (commuter).

When First won the Thames franchise (as First Great Western Link) this distinction was retained.

On the current franchise that distinction has vanished. In order to satisfy the commuters with more seats / more services (in particular to Reading) they decided to convert the Inter City HSTs into 'commuter' trains and increase the number of those long distance train stopping at Reading - and now Slough and Maidenhead.

The HSTs were refurbished with high-density seating, catering facilities watered down etc. So to please the commuters there was a conscious decision made to degrade the long distance services.

And more recently of course the great western "improved" HSTs with reduced or minmal catering and more bus seats.

But, as a regular user of HSTs I've yet to find these mythical bus seats you are always wittering on about, broadgage. Can you point me to a bus that has seats with flip down tables suitable for a laptop, access to a power socket, a moveable armrest, and a design that promotes good posture with ample leg room?

Sorry, I realise that it's horses for courses, but I find the refurbished seats uncomfortable and slightly claustrophobic. Far fewer tables, less storage space etc. But of course more seats to Reading.

I dread to think what a refurbished Pendelino would be like if they follow such a strategy.

As a further of their Inter-City ethos - the Cathedral Express after WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) stopped at Evesham - Moreton - Kingham - Charlbury - Oxford and then directly on to Paddington. It had a travelling chef - was off-peak fare & an excellent service. Now it stops at Pershore - Evesham - Honeybourne - Moreton - Kingham - Charlbury - Hanborough (for Oxford Park & Ride) - Oxford - Reading - full fare only. This is no longer an express - it is a semi-fast.

So for me First have gone from Inter-City in 1998 to Inter-Shitty in 2012 - but there are more seats to Reading .............

End of Rant (whoops sorry).

[grahame]

As a further of their Inter-City ethos - the Cathedral Express after WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) stopped at Evesham - Moreton - Kingham - Charlbury - Oxford and then directly on to Paddington. It had a travelling chef - was off-peak fare & an excellent service. Now it stops at Pershore - Evesham - Honeybourne - Moreton - Kingham - Charlbury - Hanborough (for Oxford Park & Ride) - Oxford - Reading - full fare only. This is no longer an express - it is a semi-fast.

Undoubtedly there's been that move over the years towards many more trains with something of an addition of intermediate stops. Speaking personally, I have to admit a preference for a train every 30 minutes from Chippenham to London, with stops at places like Swindon, Didcot and Reading above a service with gaps of around 2 hours that leave out one, two or three intermediate stations.  Having said that, I also preferred the old days where you could usually get a seat on evening trains out of Paddington without having to stampede!

According to my lookup, the 37.00 off peak fare IS valid on the 07:34 WOS to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains), whereas it's not valid on the 07:09 on which you'll pay a fare of 73.00 single.  There *is* also a fare or 35.50 on the 07:34 - any time, but restricted to services that run via Evesham.  Moot point as to whether you consider that - the lowest fare of the three I have mentioned - to be a "full fare".

The AA gives the Worcester to London distance as 137 miles - so you're looking at 26p per mile on the "Cathedrals Semifast".  The Chippenham to London (100 miles) any time single standard fare is the same 73.00 as the Worcester fare, with no cheaper "via Evesham" option. So that's 73p per mile.  I know that there are a number of our members who would like to see the Cotswolds trains really become expresses again, but the question has to be asked "would you be happy for the express fares to reflect the express fares on the next lines across to have that faster service?"

[Andy W]

Hi Grahame,

Yes you make an interseting point regarding fares. I can see lots of talking on the 15th.

I agree that fares are woefully inconsistent and all I can say to those in Chippenham is Worcester is a great place to live but it takes a lifetime to get to London!!!

I was more trying to point out the general deterioration in long distance 'express' travel over the length of First's stewardship and the emphasis on (largely) Reading commuters at the expense of long distance travellers.

Regarding 'express' services, I would suggest that the highest demand is at 'peak' travel times and I do see a level of premium fare being acceptable. So the restoration of the Cathedrals 'Express' would be a great improvement.

[Btline]

...and a design that promotes good posture...

How on earth can you say those awful seats encourage good posture?
Most people I see trying to get comfortable in the seat end up having to curl up and sit partially sideways, making them slouch. It's also well nigh impossible to sit "properly" in the seats and sleep, as they are so upright you fall forward.

I expect that there is a high risk of DVT^‡(resolve) from sitting in them too long. I therefore recommend all passenger to walk about on longer journeys. The seats are so hard, that your bum goes numb after about an hour - this can't be good either.

A nice comfortable seat that one can sink into (like the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) 159s) encourage better posture as once you've sat down, there is no need to slouch or curl up. You CAN design a safe and comfortable saloon without giving people stones to sit on with backs so high it blocks all the view of the carriage out!

[Ollie]

...and a design that promotes good posture...

How on earth can you say those awful seats encourage good posture?
Most people I see trying to get comfortable in the seat end up having to curl up and sit partially sideways, making them slouch. It's also well nigh impossible to sit "properly" in the seats and sleep, as they are so upright you fall forward.

I expect that there is a high risk of DVT^‡(resolve) from sitting in them too long. I therefore recommend all passenger to walk about on longer journeys. The seats are so hard, that your bum goes numb after about an hour - this can't be good either.

A nice comfortable seat that one can sink into (like the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) 159s) encourage better posture as once you've sat down, there is no need to slouch or curl up. You CAN design a safe and comfortable saloon without giving people stones to sit on with backs so high it blocks all the view of the carriage out!

Having done 1000 miles in a day on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train), I can say that I've not had an issue with the comfort of the seats and found them perfectly comfortable for long periods of time.

[Andy W]

...and a design that promotes good posture...

How on earth can you say those awful seats encourage good posture?
Most people I see trying to get comfortable in the seat end up having to curl up and sit partially sideways, making them slouch. It's also well nigh impossible to sit "properly" in the seats and sleep, as they are so upright you fall forward.

I expect that there is a high risk of DVT^‡(resolve) from sitting in them too long. I therefore recommend all passenger to walk about on longer journeys. The seats are so hard, that your bum goes numb after about an hour - this can't be good either.

A nice comfortable seat that one can sink into (like the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) 159s) encourage better posture as once you've sat down, there is no need to slouch or curl up. You CAN design a safe and comfortable saloon without giving people stones to sit on with backs so high it blocks all the view of the carriage out!

Having done 1000 miles in a day on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train), I can say that I've not had an issue with the comfort of the seats and found them perfectly comfortable for long periods of time.

Ollie, we're talking about us in the back - I'm sure first is as perfect as ever