I understood that it's because they nod too much.  Can't go into 3rd Rail territory .... but then that doesn't explain why they can't go to Salisbury.   I think I've seen references to the rule being broken, though.

I've just been researching travel for an overseas guest arriving at Waterloo via Eurostar mid afternoon (say 15:15) and travelling on to Trowbridge.

By South West Trains, the 15:50, change at Salisbury, will get him to Trowbridge at 18:12.   This is an hourly service more or less (clock fact off Waterloo, slightly erratic onward from Salisbury) and the cost of a day single ticket - walk up and use any train on the route - is 25.10

There are an additional 2 through trains a day - from Waterloo at 12:20 and 19:20.

The alternative is to get the tube from Waterloo to Paddington then the train with a change at Westbury, Bath or Swindon depending on the timing.   The 16:33 off Paddington (which is my best estimate for the train he would catch by the time he had taken his tube journey) connects into the same train at Westbury, so also gives an 18:12 arrival at Trowbridge.  The single fare from Paddington is 46 pounds.  Note that does not include the London Underground journey, and that fare is not valid on peak trains; the fare rises to 60.50 on the next train.

Advanced booking from Paddington could reduce the cost for customers who are CERTAIN that they'll be able to make a specified train.

Major engineering works at Basingstoke will adversely effect the timings from Waterloo for the week after Easter.  And the whole game changes once Eurostar shifts to St Pancras at the end of the year.

40 years ago, the railways had a generous inventory of rolling stock, with much of it brought out of sidings on high days and holidays to provide excursion trains, holiday specials and transport to and from soccer matches.  But times have changed and the excess inventory no longer exists; after all, it makes little economic sense to keep an increasingly expensive resource idle most of the time. In recent years, the "rub" point when all stock has been in use has been the Monday to Friday peak commuter time.

Even today, the economics of maintaining a train which is only busy from (say) Keynsham to Bristol in the morning and then back in the evening "on the fleet" is pretty poor.  And so there's a logic in trying to "persuade" travellers to move their journeys to less busy times to even out demand - in otehr words so that the same number of passengers can be carried with fewer resources.

One of the features of the timetable introduced last December was a reduction of peak hour services to a level that's much more similar to the level that runs during the day.  "We miscalculated" admit some of the more open managers at First.  Yes - you did.  But I find myself wondering if the miscalculation wasn't so much in the level of services that the traveller wanted, but rather in the level of annoyance the attempt to change the traveller's commuting habits would generate.

In other words, did First know exactly what they were doing in December, but they expected that the public would accept it once the initial shock had worn off.

A board for general discussions that don't fit any of the other general categories, and are  not specific to any particular line / service ...

Bear in mind that the Pacers are said to fail once in every 3200 miles (I stand corrected from "every 2000 miles" which I mis-quoted recently) ... work our mileage on the Severn Beach line and I think you'll find that you should expect an incident most weeks.    By contrast, the new HST^▸ (High Speed Train) power car engines are said to fail just once every 44000 miles (or was it - even better - once every 44000 hours!)

I understand that due to the very poor availability of trains on the West fleet out of Bristol (largely caused by a lack of facilities at the unfinished depot, and a lack of enough staff with approrpiate experience), there have been a lot more trains based there than should be necessary.   Not only will this be costing FGW^▸ (First Great Western) money that they had not bargained for, but it will also be tying up the trains which the leasing companies may have anticpiated renting out elsewhere, so First may well be coming under pressure to return the extras.

If FGW have had 12 x 2 coach trains that weren't in there budget for 3 months, that's probably cost them more than hiring a single 153 for 5 years ... and we know what a battle it has been to get movement (DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) / First / WCC^▸ (Wiltshire County Council (Until March 2009))) on that quarter to provide an appropriate TransWilts service.  So it figures that they'll be quite glad to see them go, especially if they can blame the ROSCOs^» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) for reclaiming them when they were still needed.  And did you know that Northern Rail have just signed up to lease a further 30 158s - see the full press release you can download from here.  Those won't come out of thin air.

Going slighly away from the original topic, it's rather looking as if the only unassigned diesel units that are available are a very few 153s (3? 4?), with some 142 Pacers also becoming available ex Northern Rail.  But I saw elsewhere that Pacers break down every 2000 miles.  In other words, if they were used to provide an appropriate service on the TransWilts we could expect a train failure roughly once a week.  I can't see any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) going for that option under normal circumstances.

Perhaps they have all been recruited to the new enforcement teams of penalty fare inspectors 

That's very interesting ... since the 18:42 is the last service of the day, I understood that it should be specially delayed to ensure that connections into it are made.

Dawn - how did you get back to Melksham?

So why, then, does the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) ticket sale site only offer me the "Any Route" fare for the 18:42 (via Melksham, change at Westbury) service?   And would you feel comfortable explaining your presence on that train to one of the new penalty fare collectors who may be operating on it between Swindon and Chippenham, and between Trowbridge and Westbury, both of which are in the penalty fare zone?

In practise, I think people booking on line will go for the lowest fare shown available against the train they wish to travel on, or will go for a cheaper train even if it's slower. It will take a very knowledgable and brave punter to buy a ticket that's shown as NOT being available on the selected train, and then face the FGW "revenue protection" team who have a bit of a reputation for assuming that genuine mistakes are attempts to defraud.

I suspect your friend is correct and that the "Via Bath" ticket would be accepted in practise - but I think it's wrong to expect John Doe, an occasional traveller, to realise this.  I fear that John Doe will end up paying more than he need, although the occasional Barry Doe may make a fully educated decision

On a slightly different vein, folks ...

There are TWO different fares / routes from Swindon to Salisbury - Any route and "Via Bath" - and via Bath is cheaper - much cheaper.

So if you're at Swindon at 18:30 tonight and want to travel on the 18:42 to Westbury and change there for Salisbury, you'll pay 30 pounds for a saver single (the ordinary single is 41.50).    But if you travel - say - on the 19:30 and change at Bath, the fare for an ordinary single comes down to just 18 pounds.

For those of you not familiar with the geography, the "change at Westbury" route is by far the shortest and indeed until last December there was a through Swindon / Salisbury service via this route

Thanks, Simon ... actually East-West extensions westwards could be very significant to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) territory.   One of the things about travel / transport is that it goes over regional borders!

Really the service Eastward from Oxford shouldn't start at Oxford.   Swindon, Bristol, and Exeter via Yeovil, Frome, Trowwbridge, and Swindon have been mentioned ...

Here's an early draft for he cognisci we have in these parts ... the final press release was much shorter and much better for the sort of thing the press want ....

*** Press release
*****************

from "Save the Train"

The packed "Save the Train" meeting held in Melksham last week, called on First
Great Western, The Department for Transport and Wiltshire County Council to provide
an appropriate train service from Swindon to Melksham, Trowbridge, Westbury,
Frome, Warminster, Salisbury and the south Coast.  This line links the major
and growing population centres of West Wiltshire and Somerset to Swindon, but
currently carries only 2 trains a day, from Swindon at 06:19 and 18:42.  Prior
to December 2006, a service of 5 trains per day each way was provides, timed to
suit passenger needs.

First have indicated a willingness to operate a more appropriate  service, and
"Save the train" have held direct discussions with the Department for Transport
in London, which have helped to formulate which options are likely to be supported.
Wiltshire County Council has yet to offer necessary substantive support for the
proposals.

"Save the Train" will be lobbying at West Wiltshire District Council's
extraordinary meeting on March 20th (7 p.m., Council Chamber, Bradley Road)
and asks everyone with a concern to attend, and encourages media coverage.

"Save the Train" - http://www.savethetrain.org.uk
Further information is available from:
Graham Ellis (Chair) (West Wilts) 01225 708225, graham@wellho.net
Nick Field (Chippenham) 01249 444708 nickfield@yahoo.co.uk
Ruth Grundy (Frome) 07969 664205  ruthgrundy@letterboxes.org

========================

Editorial background notes:

Passenger levels on the Swindon to West Wiltshire and beyone train service grew
between 8% and 35% per annum (compound) in the five years to December 2006, with
previously quiet trains being well loaded by Autumn 2006.   The majority of trains
were withdrawn in December as part of the new First Great Western frachise, with
the 2 remaining daily trains re-scheduled away from times at which they are required.

Passengers who wish to travel to Swindon from West Wilsthire and Frome for a day's
work how have an extra 90 minutes in Swindon (arrive 07:50, leave 18:42). Alternatives
such as bus services and (for some stations) a dogleg journey by train with a change
in Bath are inappropriate - much slower, inconvenient, and with poor connections.

Other journeys, such as travelling by train from Swindon or Chippenham to work in
Melksham, West and South Wiltshire are no longer practical.  The popular 17:50
from Swindon on Saturdays has been withdrawn, making it impractical to do a day's
shopping or go to soccer in the town unless you have a car, and the Sunday service of
six trains, which were busy in summer, has been replaced by two evening trains
running northbound only with no service in the opposite direction.

The new limited service has suffered severe cancellations - for example the 06:19
from Swindon ran only 5 times in the first three weeks in January. This has improved
somewhat, with the service 'only' cancelled twice in the first 2 weeks of March.

As a result of the very limited and inappropriate new service, and the poor
reliability record, traffic has plummeted.  We estimate that the service which
use to carry around 110000 passengers per year (figures from First) will be carrying
less than 9000 passengers (that's just 9%) this year.

Over the next 20 years, Trowbridge is set to grow by around 5000 homes, and the rest
of West Wiltshire by around 10500 homes, making it one of the fastest growth areas.
Other major growth is planned - Chippenham, Swindon, Mendip.  There is a heavy
passenger flow for work and leisure from West Wilts and Mendip to Bath and Bristol,
and further heavy flow to Swindon and Chippenham. Wiltshire County Council have
acknowledged that latter flow by including the Swindon to West Wilts and beyond
train service as a strategic service in their local transport plan.

The A350 road from the Chippenham area via Melksham, Trowbridge and Westbury to
Warminster is overcrowded and was not designed for the levels of traffic it now
carries. Severe bottlenecks include Westbury, Beanacre, the Northern end of Melksham
and Yarnbrook. Even newer sections such as the Chippenham and Semington bypasses
are not flowing at design speed due to volume of traffic.

"Save the Train" is calling for an APPROPRIATE passenger train service along the
West Wilts / A350 corridor, to provide for the key 11 passenger flows identified.
Options include:
        a) A train every 2 hours from Swindon to Westbury / Frome with
           connections to Warminster and Salisbury
        b) A train every 3 hours from Swindon via Westbury to Salisbury
           with connections to Frome, Bruton, Castle Cary, etc
Both options are achievable with a single train.  Business case / costings have
been run. 

"Save the Train" is working with local elected representatives, the Melksham
Rail Development Group, the Heart of Wessex rail partnership, the Department for
Transport, the First group and others to help provide a service that meets the
aspirations of travellers in the area in a practical and affordable way. Save the
Train is a member of Rail Future and Travel Watch South West, and associated with
organisations such as the Federation of Small Businesses, the Chamber of Commerce
and Melksham First.

Very interesting discussion of fares from Paddington to Bath ...
http://www-gatago.com/uk/railway/7376746.html

Of course, it's up to you whether you're happy with the restrictions imposed or longer journey times involved.

I suspect the same type of thing applies to Bristol;   I know that (apart from the Salisbury) option it does apply to Chippenham.

Bath and York are said to be the most expensive cities to park in for the day outside London. (Commission for Intergated Transport, quoted on a BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) Quiz)

Hello, and welcome to the forum.  There *are* times when decisions are being made "on the fly" and it's not possible to tell the passengers what will happen because - well - FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff don't yet know either.   The gap between "we can't find the conductor" and checking in the loo, phoning his missus, and checking the crew room to see if there are any spares available.

I've suffered a lot of public transport delays in my xx years and some organisations have impressed with their handling of such situations, others have not. And it's not necessarily the organisation with the worst reliability record that's held in worst regard by its customers for how it handles things.  I'm thinking of one particular organisation who have delayed me on numerous times but I still use them.
1. I feel that they tell us there's a problem early on, even if they have no solution
2. They're open about what the issues are, and offer full (somethimes quite technical) explanations
3. I feel that they take management steps to ensure that there is enough resource available and working to handle unscheduled issues
4. They don't have a blame culture that looks to place the problems at someone else's feet
5. I feel their fares are good value