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46  Journey by Journey / Chiltern Railways services / Re: Birmingham rail passengers' views sought on Chiltern Railways upgrade on: April 10, 2010, 11:18:17
Your earlier post is interesting, so forgive me for reproducing it here:

As one of the doubters as to the validity of the Evergreen 3 scheme, let me address it.

Firstly, thanks for posting the links to an absolutely fascinating document! All of the rumours and contradicting statements have been answered, and the document(s) provide a very clear indication of Chiltern's ambitions.

Some of their intentions are, quite frankly, staggering! Some of the headlines include the 100 minute journey times that we'd been told about. Other improvements are impressive to say the least; London to Warwick Parkway in 75 minutes (down from 88 minutes); London to Banbury at 52 minutes (down from 63 minutes); London to Wycombe at 22 minutes (down from 29 minutes); 750 car park spaces at the new Water Eaton station; 350 at the revamped Bicester Town station; remodelled junction speeds with massive increases including Aynho Junction in the down direction raising from the current 40mph limit up to 85mph (that will be some track cant!); a rebuilt up platform at Bicester North with linespeed increased from 25mph to 100; and a stated hoped introduction date of December 2010 (for phase 1)- only just over a year away!

Now that little lot is ambitious to say the least. Perhaps too ambitious?

Whilst the scope of the track work goes quite some way beyond what I was expecting, I am still concerned that Chiltern are biting off more than they can chew with some of these proposed schedules. Even non-stop, 52 minutes from London to Banbury (a distance by rail of some 70 miles) is very challenging for a 100mph train with non-exceptional acceleration. I note that Chiltern are expecting a 1.2% worsenment of their PPM(resolve) figures as a result of the Stage 2 timetable - I wonder if that's what the press will pick up on!

Also, there are still a significant number of occasions when I have witnessed a Class 165 working vice a 168 on London to Birmingham services this year (I estimate about 5% of workings). That doesn't sound like much, but a Class 165 on those point-to-point timings will woefully struggle to keep up, whereas now it only loses a couple of minutes.

Added to that, fourteen months to install all of the realigned track, extra junctions and revised signalling is an incredibly tight time-scale in railway terms - even if major work started tomorrow.

I also have concerns about what the new timetable will mean for some existing passenger flows. It's win, win, win for many flows and the vast majority of commuters into and out of London. However, some routes suffer badly. As of now, anybody wanting to travel off-peak from High Wycombe to Banbury has 6 direct trains to choose from (and a couple of indirect ones) between 11am and 3pm. With the proposed timetable, there'll be only two trains - a service every two hours on the Stratford route.

High Wycombe to Birmingham fares even worse with no direct trains at all during those times - indeed with a change at Banbury there will still only be a service every two hours! So that's a huge decrease in the number of trains and options for a town of around 100,000. I suppose you could go from Wycombe to Oxford and change there, but if the AXC» (Arriva Cross Country - about) timings are the same from Oxford as they are now, you'll be looking at a 25 minute connection time!

Other routes suffer as well; if you want to go from Beaconsfield to Denham, Ruislip or Wembley off-peak you currently have a direct train every 30 minutes (one stopping at West Ruislip and one at South). With Evergreen 3 then all of the direct trains are gone with only an hourly service if you change at Gerrards Cross.

It's a similar type of story to the WCML (West Coast Main Line) Very High Frequency timetable, with lots of significant flows on the non-London routes suffering badly in comparison with before. Whether Chiltern will be forced to improve things remains to be seen.

So, overall, Chiltern should be congratulated for having the ambition and financial backing to propose such a scheme - and their 'track' record on being able to deliver them on time and on budget has so far been unquestioned -  but many of my reservations remain! Thoughts?

The problem as far as I can see it is that Chiltern has scrimped on track upgrades south of High Wycombe - they could have reinstated passing loops at High Wycombe, Beaconsfield and Denham, but instead have restricted new loops to South Ruislip (down) and Princes Risborough (up). I suspect this will restrict their ability to add stops for local and Oxford services whilst maintaining 100 min timings for Birmingham services.

Evergreen 4 anyone?
47  Journey by Journey / Chiltern Railways services / Re: Birmingham rail passengers' views sought on Chiltern Railways upgrade on: April 09, 2010, 19:12:11
An excellent part of the website, and a great way of showing just how well presented an on-line consultation can be - I think the Phase 1 timetables are pretty much on the mark, but I have my on-line pen sharpened for any similar Phase 2 consultation!

I'm not surprised to see the date slip to next May for the changes as it was always asking a hell of a lot to get all the infrastructure work ready in time for December as originally hoped!


The commitment to a peak hour 92 mins London - Birmingham service seems to have eased to 98 minutes in the latest documents. However still impressive.

The draft timetables for phase 2 (i.e. the Oxford extension) are on the Network Rail website at:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browseDirectory.aspx?dir=\Track%20Access\2%20Completed%20Consultations\2009\2009.10.27%20Chiltern%20Railways%2073rd%20Supplemental%20Agreement%20-%20consultation%20closed%2023%20November%202009&pageid=4591&root=


48  All across the Great Western territory / The Wider Picture - related rail and other transport issues / Re: Wrexham & Shropshire - their rise and fall (merged topic) on: March 15, 2010, 20:23:16
Have your parents restricted your access?   Cheesy
49  All across the Great Western territory / The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom / Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion on: March 12, 2010, 12:44:47
The Atkins Report on alternative rail upgrades has been published on
the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) website:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/alternativestudy/


These are summarised in the Strategic Outline Case (see pages 73 -76
plus Annex A page 77 and options copied below) and covered in more
detail in the Rail Interventions Report:


'8.1.1 The Packages


The rail strategic alternatives to the High Speed 2 proposition
started from the point that the West Coast Main Line and the other
rail routes to the West Midlands and the North West are at full
capacity, and that no extra services can be run without any additional
infrastructure investment. The timetable has been optimised.
A total of five rail packages were identified as Strategic
Alternatives to the High Speed 2 proposition. The first of these,
train lengthening, was not taken forward for further analysis as it
was not likely to be considered as a viable alternative to High Speed
2, since it made no impact on journey times.
The remaining four packages were largely incremental, with each
subsequent package building upon the preceding one.


8.1.2 Package 2


Package 2 and 2A show that with extra infrastructure investment (in
the region of ^3.6 billion) the capacity of the WCML (West Coast Main Line) can be enhanced
significantly. Subject to further engineering and capacity modelling,
it should be possible to operate an extra four or five trains per hour
(tph) in a standard off-peak hour, resulting in a total of 15/16 tph
into/out of Euston.
This package has a reasonable impact on journey times. Journey times
to Manchester are forecast to decrease by 6.5 minutes, to give an
average journey time of approximately 121.5 minutes. Journey times to
Birmingham are also forecast to decrease by approximately 12 minutes,
to give an average journey time of 73 minutes ^ primarily as a result
of serving fewer intermediate stations.
Depending on the assumptions made in relation to rolling stock
procurement and timetabling contingency to assist recovery from delays
and incidents, this package has an indicative BCR (Benefit Cost Ratio) of between 3.63 and
2.19. This BCR may change should the forecast scheme costs and
benefits be developed in greater detail, as part of the project
development and value engineering process.
Whilst Package 2 does impact moderately on the environment at various
locations, there are not predicted to be any very significant adverse
impacts with this package, and it is the least environmentally
damaging of the packages. This is mainly due to the fact that it does
not have any new infrastructure build on the Chiltern Lines, so does
not impact on the Chilterns Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty (AONB (Areas Of Natural Beauty)).
The proposed works will be disruptive to passengers. The extent of
this depends on the scheme design and the scope of staging works, and
has not been assessed in detail at this stage.


8.1.3 Package 3
With significant investment on the Chiltern Line, in addition to the
WCML investment in Package 2, it should be possible to operate the 3
trains per hour (previously WCML) London to West Midlands services on
the Chiltern route. The infrastructure works for this package are
forecast to cost in the region of ^12.5 billion, and will free up to
three London to North West paths on the WCML.
Although the investment will electrify the Chiltern route, and have
other benefits, it will not significantly further reduce journey times
between London and the West Midlands/North West. Typical journey times
to Manchester are forecast to remain at around the 121.5 minutes
achieved
by Package 2, with times to Birmingham decreasing further to give a
typical non ^ stop journey time of around 70.5 minutes to Moor Street
station.
Depending on the assumptions made in relation to rolling stock
procurement this package has an indicative BCR of between 1.24 and
1.11. This BCR may change should the forecast scheme costs and
benefits be developed in greater detail, as part of the project
development and value engineering process.


Package 3 creates some significant adverse environmental impacts. This
is mainly due to infrastructure works on the Chiltern Lines, having an
impact on the Chiltern AONB.
The proposed works will be disruptive to passengers. The extent of
this depends on the scheme design and the scope of staging works, and
has not been assessed in detail at this stage.
In order to consider the case for enhancements to the Chiltern route
without further enhancements of the WCML, a revised version of package
3, package 3A, was developed which excluded WCML infrastructure works.
The cost of package 3A is approximately 30% less than that of package
3. Depending on the assumptions made in relation to rolling stock
procurement whilst retaining timetabling contingency to assist
recovery from delays and incidents results in package 3A having an
indicative BCR of between 1.30 and 1.19.


8.1.4 Package 4
Package 4 entails further works on the Chiltern Line between London
and the West Midlands, in an attempt to further improve the journey
times to the West Midlands. It includes a number of additional
infrastructure schemes, and is forecast to cost in the region of ^15.1
billion.
In this package it should be possible to reduce the journey time
between London and Birmingham to around 64 minutes, assuming a single
stop. Typical journey times to Manchester remain as at
121.5 minutes as in Packages 2 and 3.
Depending on the assumptions made in relation to rolling stock
procurement this package has an indicative BCR of between 1.1 and 1.0.
This BCR may change should the forecast scheme costs and benefits be
developed in greater detail, as part of the project development and
value engineering process.
Package 4 does have some significant adverse environmental impacts.
This is mainly due to infrastructure works on the Chiltern Lines,
having an impact on the Chiltern AONB.
The proposed works will be disruptive to passengers. The extent of
this depends on the scheme design and the scope of staging works, and
has not been assessed in detail at this stage.


8.1.5 Package 5
Package 5 involves additional infrastructure works to enable the
Chiltern Lines to become a viable alternative to the West Coast Main
Line as far North as Stafford. This package is likely to cost in the
region of ^19.6 billion, but running trains onto the northern
stretches of the WCML via Chiltern is may prove too technically and
operationally challenging. A considerable amount of additional work
would be required to assess whether this option is feasible
Package 5, if possible to implement, could allow a limited number of
extra services (notionally 1 tph to Warrington and 1 extra tph to
Manchester) to be operated via the Chiltern Line. It is not clear that
there is any significant demand for these services. It will not impact
on journey times achieved in Package 4. Typical journey times to
Manchester will remain at 121.5 minutes, with typical times to
Birmingham at around 65.5 minutes.
Depending on the assumptions made in relation to rolling stock
procurement this package has an indicative BCR of between 0.93 and
0.85. This BCR may change should the forecast scheme costs and
benefits be developed in greater detail, as part of the project
development and value engineering process.


Package 5 is the most environmentally damaging scheme, and has a
number of significant adverse impacts in the Chilterns AONB and
elsewhere.
The proposed works will be disruptive to passengers. The extent of
this depends on the scheme design and the scope of staging works, and
has not been assessed in detail at this stage.'


50  All across the Great Western territory / The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom / Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion on: March 12, 2010, 12:08:53
Did anyone notice that on BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) R4 they were  announcing it would be a 250 mph line.

That's 400 kph, even the French are only thinking of 350 kmh.

Or did they mean 250 kmh or 156 mph which is slower than 186 mph on HS1 (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel).

The line will be built for 250mph (400km/h) . The trains will initially run at 225mph (360km/h)
51  All across the Great Western territory / The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom / Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion on: March 10, 2010, 20:11:07
From the Guardian website this evening (10/03/10)


'The government will tomorrow unveil plans for a 225mph British high-speed rail network, including a detailed London-to-Birmingham route that will create more than 10,000 jobs if the multibillion pound project goes ahead.

The transport secretary, Lord Adonis, will announce that building and operating an ultra-fast rail link between the capital and Britain's second city will boost manufacturing and technology industries in the UK (United Kingdom). Construction could begin as soon as 2017 with 2027 a likely completion date for the first phase. The route would have to undergo a public consultation before going through parliament.

Adonis is considering a London-to-Birmingham line that starts at London Euston station and does not go through Heathrow directly, instead connecting with Britain's largest airport at a site on Old Oak Common in west London that will be called the Crossrail Interchange.

It will connect passengers to the airport via the ^16bn Crossrail route, which links Heathrow to Canary Wharf via central London and is due to open in 2017.

The route will then embark on its most controversial phase, through the Chiltern hills in Buckinghamshire, one of 40 areas of outstanding natural beauty in England and Wales.

The Chilterns Conservation Board, the public body responsible for protecting the area, has warned that swaths of the area could be "trashed" by the route.

However, part of the line is expected to run alongside a dual carriageway in the Chilterns as Adonis seeks to build the line alongside existing transport routes. It will then stop near Birmingham airport and the National Exhibition Centre at a parkway station, designed for car drivers and bus users, before continuing to a new terminal in Birmingham city centre. The main route will continue from Birmingham airport through the Trent valley to connect with existing rail lines, where high-speed services will continue to Manchester and Scotland at conventional speeds.

The journey from Old Oak Common to the parkway station will be swift, taking 31 minutes compared with the current 80-minute journey from London Euston to Birmingham New Street.

Although trains are expected to travel at 225mph, the route has been designed to achieve a top speed of 250mph. The London-to-Birmingham route has been drawn up by a government-backed company, High Speed Two, and will be published in detail, within five metres in urban areas and 25 metres in the countryside. The full High Speed Two report will be published alongside the Adonis proposals, which will become a white paper once the public consultation has closed.

However, the national route beyond Birmingham will be outlined in broader terms, with rail industry sources expecting a "V" shaped network running through Manchester to Glasgow on the west side of the UK and to Leeds and Edinburgh on the east side. Adonis ultimately hopes to reduce the journey time from London to Edinburgh from four and a half hours to two hours 40 minutes.'
52  All across the Great Western territory / The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom / Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion on: March 08, 2010, 18:40:02
HaHa...Mr Wolmar, the only man seeing through the fog and hype...industry take note. With typical UK (United Kingdom) dithering it'll never happen, hopefully. Cool

I think you're referring to Mr Wolmar's article in the TSSA» (Transport Salaried Staffs' Association - about) journal:

'Towards the end of this month, we will get the government^s White Paper based on the work by the HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) team which will set out a route between London and Birmingham down to the last few inches. Everyone apparently wants a high speed line. The Tories, the Libdems and belatedly Labour have all embraced the idea. Environmentalists say it will be green, the CBI says it will be good for the economy and the unions reckon it will create jobs.

 There is much excitement among the media stimulated by squabbling between various towns in the Midlands and the North about where a line should go. The Sunday Times even ran a story complaining that the Tories had not funded the line north of Leeds and therefore it might not even go to Scotland.
 It looks, therefore, like a no-brainer. Given the political consensus and the universal approval, what can stop it? Well, actually, lots and the idea that the line could be built without serious damaging effects on the rest of the rail network is fanciful.

 The whole project is being caught up in its own hype and a reality check is urgently needed. Lets first put the overblown story in the Sunday Times to rest. The story is about a line which will not even start to be built until 2015, with a completely unquantified cost and- except you can be sure it will be more than any number so far quoted - and a purpose which has never been properly specified. The line, at best, would not reach Scotland till 2025. Yet, here they are getting up a head of steam over the details of something that may or may not happen in fifteen years time. That is like much of the coverage of HS2, quite literally much ado about nothing.

The Tories are partly to blame. They claim that their proposal is fully funded and worked out. It is, wait for it, a line that will go from London, probably via Heathrow, to Birmingham, Manchester and then through the Pennines to Leeds. That is complete madness. If the line had an L shape, and stopped in the intermediary cities, it would hardly be faster than the existing two hour service between Leeds and London. It^s a typical politician^s plan, trying to include everyone but unable to stand up to rigorous analysis.

Moreover, the Tories plan to fund the line partly through the private sector which will only make the scheme more expensive since it has no hope of being commercially viable. But even they admit that ^15bn out of the supposed ^20bn cost will have to come from the public sector, or ^1.3bn per year during the 12 year construction period.

Even if assuming that these figures are not underestimates, this shows the real danger of a high speed line. There is no way that it would be built without demands being made on the existing rail budget. During a 12 year period, there is almost bound to be an economic downturn and halfway through construction it would be impossible to cut back on the construction costs as the contracts would be let. This is not a zero sum game. The money for investing in the high speed line would ultimately come out of the budget for the maintenance and improvement of existing lines, especially in hard times.

 HS2 therefore represents a significant threat to the existing railway. You only have to go to France to see that while the TGV (Train a Grande Vitesse) services are undoubtedly wonderful and far better than any services on this side of the Channel, their lignes classiques are characterised in many places by old trains, irregular services and rundown stations. France^s investment in high speed lines has been at the cost of the old railway.

 There are plenty of other reasons why a high speed line is unlikely to be built, Its environmental credentials are dubious, the state of the economy is unlikely to warrant it, rising energy prices will impact on the railway and new technology may well reduce the need for business travel.

The focus of the investment programme should, therefore, be on improving and adapting the existing railway. Given that load factors on the railways are still load, except at peak times, there is plenty of spare capacity. You only have to look at the vast empty spaces in first class at most times of the day to realise that.

 Indeed, abolishing first class would create a vast amount of extra capacity, far more cheaply than building a new line. If capacity is the main problem, then investment needs to be targeted at bottlenecks. The priorities for the investment programme beyond 2014 has just been examined by the Commons Transport Committee in a report published on February 15. The report highlights the fact that investment in railways is currently at a historic high and most of that is untouchable because it is committed in Network Rail^s current five year plan. Rightly, the committee warns that the next five year period, starting in 1914 is likely to be much tighter and says that this requires prioritisation.

That is undoubtedly right and my instinct is that the railway must focus on modest but significant schemes - infilling electrification, reopening lines on the cheap through the use of development money, boosting capacity by clever pathing and maximising use of existing track, reducing costs of running branch lines through flexible arrangements and so on.

 This may sound unexciting and modest but it isn^t. Quite the opposite. The railways could be operated far more efficiently than at the moment, and spending money on bottlenecks and small scale schemes could lead to radical improvements.

 There must, though, be room for some major schemes. By 2014, London will have benefitted from a huge proportion of the investment in the railways - Thameslink, Crossrail, HS1 (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) commuter services, East London Line, the PPP on the Underground and so on. So rightly, the MPs (Member of Parliament) - who of course have vested interests but never mind that - are seeking to see major schemes such as electrifying the Midland Main Line and improving the Manchester hub which has become a major bottlenecks.

 The railway is going through a fantastic period of investment which is bound to be cut back once these large schemes start to come on stream. After such a bonanza, it would be unrealistic to expect that a north south high speed line could be built without detracting from much-needed investment programmes. Sure there is a potential capacity problem, but it is not big enough to justify a scheme costing upwards of ^30 billion. Let^s focus on Britain^s lignes classiques and forget the pipedream.'
53  All across the Great Western territory / The Wider Picture - related rail and other transport issues / Re: Chiltern Chairman Challenge - Evergreen 4! on: March 07, 2010, 15:13:13
It appears that Captain Deltic's Chiltern Chairman Challenge may be
connected to further upgrade proposals from Chiltern:

This from TransportXtra 25 February:

'Delivering the Evergreen III project will see Chiltern^s franchise
extended from its current guarantee of 12.5 years to run for its full
20-year term, but Shooter said that he was continuing to work up
further investment projects for the network which he expected to
reveal shortly.'
54  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: Pre-series Super Express Trains cancelled and delay to IEP Programme? on: February 28, 2010, 20:21:25
Quote
Quote from: willc on February 26, 2010, 08:05:20 PM
come up with frankly bizarre stuff like fitting diesel shunting engines into express electric trains

I actually thought that was quite a sensible idea as it would provide enough power to get the train to the nearest station in the event of overhead power failure, or off of the main line in the event of a power connected train failure, or to be able to move itself within the confines of a non-electrified depot or sidings.

Well if it's such a great idea, why hasn't anyone else built a high-speed electric train like this? Maybe they expect them to run on electric power and can't see the point of lugging around several tonnes of engine and fuel on the off-chance they might be needed now and again in an emergency.

Or maybe once again we're right and everyone else in the rest of the world is wrong.

The Chinese have - the Polaris, at a cost of around ^1 million per carriage, about half the price of a Super Express coach:

http://www.csre.co.uk/intercity.html

http://www.csre.co.uk/files/Download/2009%20Polaris%20Data%20Sheet.pdf



55  All across the Great Western territory / The Wider Picture - related rail and other transport issues / Chiltern Chairman Challenge - Evergreen 4! on: February 26, 2010, 20:09:00
Following last month's announcement on Evergreen 3, Chiltern Chairman
Adrian Shooter is asking Modern Railways readers what Evergreen 4
should provide. Roger Ford likes the idea of a 4 track 125mph
electrified railway but reckons that this will have to wait for
Evergreen 5 (and a potential franchise extension to 2026, according to
the article!) !

Comments to Roger Ford at:  Evergreen4@alycidon.com
56  All across the Great Western territory / The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom / Re: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion on: February 20, 2010, 16:58:26
An unusually easy ride given to Andrew Adonis by Paxo, perhaps time constraints didn't allow him to push the point about how much HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) is expected to cost. Paxo could also have pressed him further on the favoured route(s) contained in the report which Andrew Adonis is currently sitting on.

I didn't see the report but I am sorry to read this analysis.  For those like me who grew up with a downtrodden railway recovering from Beeching, all talk of High Speed Rail brings out wild enthusiasm.

My guess is that the preferred route is the old GWR (Great Western Railway) main line to Birmingham, re-instating four tracking through most of the route.

There is a train on most days from Paddington that takes this route (11 00 or so Princes Risborough).  Take the train and see the potential.   

I'm sorry to see that, having supposedly backed High Speed Rail, the Conservatives seem now to be having cold feet.

Not a good sign for the future.  And there I will leave politics......

HS2 would be a completely separate line from the Chiltern Mainline. However, there may be some mileage in developing this line further (Evergreen 4?) as a cheap alternative to HS2 if money were scarce - i.e reinstatement of passing loops, 4 tracking from Dorridge to Birmingham Moor Street, running fast services into Paddington rather than Marylebone once Crossrail releases platforms at Paddington, electrification, longer platforms etc.
57  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: Conservatives vow to build Crossrail on: February 06, 2010, 10:32:16
I thought the debt would be in Network rails name, the goverment is just securing it? Be interesting if they reckon some of the fleet will do another 15-20 years ( 150 units etc) if Replacing the 165/66 units is delayed by another ten years they wont be able to cascade them either.

The debt may be in Network Rail's name, but in reality it's public debt. Don't be surprised if the Conservatives rip up Network Rail's 09-14 settlement after the election.
58  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: Conservatives vow to build Crossrail on: February 04, 2010, 12:01:14
The phrase "cast iron guarantee" springs to mind.  Wink


Funny how the Conservatives will be able to afford the ^16 billion Crossrail project but not a ^1 billion electrification scheme.
59  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: Conservatives vow to build Crossrail on: February 03, 2010, 12:21:55
Like all pre-election promises, irrelevant of party,.....don't hold your breath

The Conservatives will review: Electrification, IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.), Themeslink replacement stock and Crossrail:

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/general/2010/02/03-no-guarantees-about-major-rail.html
60  All across the Great Western territory / Across the West / Re: Conservatives vow to build Crossrail on: February 02, 2010, 20:25:55
The Tories have been pretty consistent about HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) over the past year or so; good that they have now committed to Crossrail. Where that leaves funding for GWML (Great Western Main Line) electrification and Super Express is anyone's guess!
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