Split tickets, advance fares and connecting trains

[whole diary]

[basset44]

Hi All,

Have a weekend coming up in Brighton and on the way back we wanted to call and stay with some friends in Reading.

Cardiff to Brighton advance great price cheapest about 22.00 for two, coming back 2 singles to Reading 60.80 on a Saturday.

Could get 2 advance tickets to Swindon for 14.00 on the 11.24 departure arrive Swindon at 13.55 then get 2 advanced tickets back from Swindon on the 14.15 for
8.00 pounds. Is this cutting it too fine if the connections are late?

Could I just wait at Reading, I know its technically travelling short I dont mine the extra hour travelling up to Swindon and back if it is saving me over 38.00 pounds.

Advice welcomed

Thanks

Basset

[Brucey]

Connection Time at Swindon is just 5 minutes.

As you have two tickets, you get into the argument as to whether two tickets constitute one journey or two.  I believe this has been clarified recently to define them as one single journey and therefore allow you to take later connections, although I don't remember where I saw it...

[JayMac]

Two Advance Purchase tickets can be used for one journey. As long as you abide by minimum connection times then there is no problem if you are delayed on the first leg. You will be entitled to take a later service with the same TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company).

This is clarified by information provided to rail staff, although unfortunately this info is not yet in the public domain.

From The Manual (The official source of retail information for rail staff):

Frequently Asked Questions about travelling with Advance fares.

Q22 - Can a passenger travel on any trains other than the one on which they are reserved, without changing the booking?

A: The following principles apply.

1). Start of the Journey. It is the passenger^s responsibility to turn up at the start of the journey in time for the first train. If they miss it due to problems parking, taxi not turning up etc, they must buy a new ticket;

2). Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the rail industry or its partners is at fault, which should be checked with your Control Office, change to another train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay. This is irrespective of combinations of rail tickets held.

I wouldn't recommend travelling short to Reading on an AP to Swindon as this is against the T&Cs of AP tickets. Plus you will then need AP tickets from Reading to Cardiff which are likely more expensive than the ones you've already identified from Swindon.

[John R]

Why should it matter whether it is the same TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)? From the passenger's perspective there should be no difference if ticket 1 is with one TOC and ticket 2 with another TOC as they have legitimately bought two tickets for their journey, and if TOC 1 fails to get them to the switch point it is not their fault.

From the TOC's point of view I can understand that if they fail to deliver said passenger to the switch point then clearly their train has caused the delay, so it would be completely out of order for them to even think of penalising the passenger, but from the passenger's perspective, it shouldn't matter who caused the delay.

As an example, I have a season ticket that covers travel from Nailsea to Bristol. If I buy an advance ticket with XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) from Bristol northwards, then what is the position if I arrive at Nailsea in good time to catch a service that will connect at Temple Meads (allowing the appropriate connection time), but it fails to turn up?  It sounds as though I would need to buy a new ticket on XC. Rough justice when I haven't done anything wrong, and indeed have already been inconvienced by the rail industry.   

[bigdaz]

It sounds as though I would need to buy a new ticket on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)). Rough justice when I haven't done anything wrong, and indeed have already been inconvienced by the rail industry.   

Hi John R.  I think your interpretation and mine may be different of what Bignosemac has quote.

In my opinion, I think this example is what it means....

If I am travelling from Farnborough to Birmingham on an advanced ticket - Virgin + Connections then if SWT^▸ (South West Trains) delayed me in getting to Waterloo - or London Underground to Euston - then I must still travel to Birmingham by VIRGIN trains on the next available train (as opposed to transferring to Marlylebone and expecting Chiltern to carry on a CT train with Virgin Ticket).

Perhaps someone would clarify?

Therefore referring to your example.... if, say you were travelling to Birmingham from Bristol Temple Meads you'd be entitled to travel on the CROSS COUNTRY service to Birmingham but would be precluded from using FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to Worcester and changing to London Midland.

[Chris from Nailsea]

I think John R is pointing out that, in his example, such a failure by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to get him from Nailsea to Bristol on time means that his advance Cross Country ticket from Bristol northwards is invalidated, and he would have to purchase another one.

And I'd agree with his concerns over that clearly unsatisfactory situation. 

[paul7575]

bnm was quoting only one of a whole list of Q&A about 'Advance' issues available to staff.  The problem is getting individual members of staff to acknowledge the information, which as he says isn't exactly in the public domain.

John R should not have to buy a new XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) ticket, that's as much as I know - this is why bnm has bolded the last part of his quote.

The whole set of Q & A was posted in uk.railway a few weeks ago, if I could find them again I'd definitely keep a copy...

Paul 

[JayMac]

I think John R is pointing out that, in his example, such a failure by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to get him from Nailsea to Bristol on time means that his advance Cross Country ticket from Bristol northwards is invalidated, and he would have to purchase another one.

That is not the case. If you are delayed by FGW in getting to Bristol and you missed the CrossCountry service on which you had an Advance Purchase ticket, then you are entitled to take the next available CrossCountry service. You need not buy a new ticket nor should such a demand be made. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage allow for multiple tickets to be used for one journey and the Advance Purchase Tickets FAQs^▸ (Frequently Asked Questions) supplied to staff clarify the position when one or more of those tickets is an Advance Purchase. Going so far as to say that travel on a later service is permitted irrespective of combinations of rail tickets held.

It may be possible that there is a long wait for the next service provided by the operator on whose train you were originally scheduled to travel, or you may have missed the last service of the day. However in these circumstances you are still covered by the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can, either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.

Despite all this quoting of rules and regulations you will find that most staff are understanding when delays occur. It is very rare to hear of people being flatly refused travel on the next available service provided by the relevant TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) and it is also not unusual, in cases of severe delays, to hear that a passenger has been given permission to travel with any operator. You'll often see notices online during severe delays that say something along the lines of 'TOC X passengers may travel with TOC Y via reasonable routes' or 'Passengers with tickets on TOC X are being accepted for travel on TOC Y'

Finally, in the OPs^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter) case and the example raised John R, the next direct train to the destination is only provided by one TOC.

[grahame]

Agreed - John R should not have to purchase another ticket, but would be able go go forward on the next XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service after the one that the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) connection failed to make.

But I pity anyone who purchases an 8 pound advanced fare from Bognor to Bristol, for the 09:06 ... but that's late leaving Bognor "late running of incoming train" and fails to connect to the 09:38 at Barnham.  The next First service to go forward is at ...

[Brucey]

But I pity anyone who purchases an 8 pound advanced fare from Bognor to Bristol, for the 09:06 ... but that's late leaving Bognor "late running of incoming train" and fails to connect to the 09:38 at Barnham.  The next First service to go forward is at ...

In which case NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) 43 should be used to request that Southern provide onward transport to Cosham.  Having said that, most staff will allow you to travel on the next service without needing to argue.

[JayMac]

The most often raised points about the use of Advance Purchase tickets are detailed below in an edited extract from 'The Manual'. (Credit to hairyhandedfool over at RailUK Forums.)

Advance fares FAQS - From the Manual (FRPP)

Q4. Can a customer buy two advance which join together and form one journey? e.g. ticket for A-B plus ticket for B-C, to travel throughout journey A-C?

A. Yes, provided the train calls at B.

Note 1. Where a passenger buys multiple tickets in this way, if they then have to change their booking, it will also cost them multiple amounts of ^10 fee.

Note 2. Where multiple train companies are used A-B and B-C with a change of train and ticket at B, it is still classed as a through journey in the event of delays provided they were booked in accordance with the minimum connection times for the station. For example, a passenger travelling Cambridge-Peterborough 'XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) only' and Peterbourgh-Leeds 'EC only' is allowed to take the next East Coast service in the event of delay on the Cross Country service causing the connection to be missed.

Q6. Are refunds or changes allowed with these tickets?

A. Once booked the ticket is non-refundable. Passengers will be entitled to refund in the event of a delay or cancellation as per condition 25(A), 42 and 43 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Up to the departure of the first reserved train (not "suggested" connecting services) the ticket may be changed onto any available service. The excess is upto the next available ticket, walk-up or advance purchase, plus a ^10 fee per single ticket. If a change is required after the departure of the first reserved train, the ticket has no further value and a new ticket must be purchased.

Q7 If passengers are found to be travelling not on their booked train (but on the correct day), what fare will they be require to buy on the train?

A. Train Companies policies are as follows:

[A table here in 'The Manual' shows all train companies require purchase of the full Anytime fare except First Hull Trains, Scotrail, Southern and Virgin Trains who require the fare available immediately before travel.]

Q9. Can someone buy an Advance ticket, then excess it to an "Any Permitted" ticket and then use it on another operator's train service?

A. No, they must stick with the operator shown on the original ticket.

Q12. A passenger has an Advance ticket but would like to change their seat allocation. Are they able to do this at the station in advance?

A. Yes, but this counts as a change as it takes retail time and therefore incurs a ^10 fee per single ticket (some TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) e.g. Virgin Trains may waive this and will inform staff). Seat preferences should be detailed when making the booking, not later. The 'Conditions' show that the ticket is only valid in the seat shown and this is the message to get across. however, tell the passenger that onboard staff may allow them to move if space allows.

Q15. A passenger holds a standard advance ticket from station A to station B. but no return ticket. Can they upgrade it to a Super Off-Peak Return by paying the difference plus a ^10 fee?

A. Yes - Maximum flexibility for the ticket holder before the train departs.

Q16. A passenger holds a standard advance ticket from station A to station B and one for the return B to A. They miss the outward train from station A and so the outward portion is now invalid. As these tickets can upgrade to any other walk up fare, can we upgrade the (still valid) B to A advance single to a Super Off-Peak ticket from A to B?

A. Yes, - Maximum flexibility before the train departs.

In this case it is permissible to upgrade the return journey to become the return leg of the Off-Peak ticket. That way the customer at least gets some credit for the return journey. Only one lot of ^10 needs to be paid. If done in advance of the outward travel, the passenger would have to pay two lots of ^10 fees, but they would also be getting credit for both legs of the journey.

Q22. Can a passenger travel on any other service than the one on which they are reserved, without changing the booking?

A. the following principles apply.

1) Start of the Journey. It is the passenger responsibility to turn up at the start of the journey in time for the departure of the first train. If they miss it due to parking problems, taxis not turning up, etc, they must buy a new ticket,

2) Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the train company or it's partners [are] at fault, which should be check by [staff] control office, change to a train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay. This is irrespective of the combination of rail tickets held. Examples are:

Included are passsengers on valid:

Through domestic or international tickets. e.g. Brighton-Scarborough route TOC X & connections;

Through rail and partner tickets for which there is a through bus, tube, ferry or metro fare
e.g. Zone U12-Leeds, Wisbech coach-York, Ryde Pier-Hull, etc;

Combination of rail only tickets.
e.g. Rail season ticket Skipton-Leeds and Advance Leeds-Peterborough, or adjoining advance fares;

Combination of rail and partner tickets.
e.g. Brighton-Zone U12 plus advance London-Manchester, or;

e.g. Advance ticket Bristol-Paddington plus tube single ticket, plus advance ticket Kings Cross to Hull;

All Zones Travelcards, PTE^▸ (Passenger Transport Executive)-products (where rail is included) plus advance fares, etc;

Combination of Eurostar tickets into the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) and then either advance tickets from London terminals or "London Intnl CIV^▸ (International Convention for the transportation of Passengers)" or Lndon Eurostar CIV;

Not included for the avoidance of doubt, are:

Non train company travel on separate tickets, e.g. tickets that begin on bus-only, tube-only, ferry-only or metro-only tickets. (this includes "PlusBus", which is a local day-rover bus ticket not compatible with a medium/long distance advance single ticket, so are kept as separate tickets), or;

Tickets that cannot be read on-train e.g. smartcards (allowable where electronically checked, verified and advance ticket endorsed in travel centres).

Please note that there is no change to :

a) Any other rules e.g. trains stopping where tickets join together (NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) 19), nor;

b) The need to verify that a train has been delayed on route and ticket endorsed, nor;

c) Any other passenger entitlements as defined by the NRCoC or CIV conditions, nor;

d) General ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) disruption guidance

e) Staff discretion in extreme circumstances.

Q23. Can a passenger travel on a TOC X train if they are booked on another TOC's advance dedicated ticket

A. No. Dedicated TOC tickets (="TOC X only") do exactly what gthey say on the ticket. However, during times of disruption, retail and on-train staff should use their discretion, as advised by their control offiice.

Q24. Can a passenger travel on a TOC X train if they are booked on another TOCs Advance ticket e.g. "TOC Y & connections"?

A. As a connecting TOC into the main TOC shown in the routeing on the ticket - Yes.

As a replacement of the main TOC shown on the ticket - No. (However, during times of disruption, retail and on-train staff should use their discretion, as advised by their control office).

Q25. Can passengers on an advance ticket travel on earlier connecting trains?

A. Yes if it is non-reservable, no if it is reservable.

An exception that benefits customers: Where East Coast is a connecting TOC from Stevenage via London and vice versa e.g "AP London Reading" or "VWC & connections", East Coast waives the need for travel on the exact East Coast train booked on this relatively short journey Stevenage-Kings Cross, even though retail systems will force a reservation to be made.

[Phil]

^ great answer!

[John R]

Ok, thanks for the clarification "change to another train of the same company" in my hypothetical example means another service of XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)), regardless of the incoming train's operator. 

But wait a minute, BNM's excellent response also has the wording

b) The need to verify that a train has been delayed on route and ticket endorsed, nor;

So does this mean I would have to make myself known to someone before boarding the XC train (either the TM^‡(resolve) on the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) service that I eventually caught) or someone on the station at Temple Meads, explain the situation, and that they would have to endorse my (season) ticket. Again, if I've interpreted correctly then I'm sure this would trip up many people, and I'm not sure I would want anything written on my season.

[JayMac]

A few words with the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) Train Manager prior to boarding should suffice. If time permits then there is nothing wrong with seeking out station staff to obtain authorisation to travel. This need not be written on your season ticket. A slip can be issued and endorsed with the station stamp.

That can provide peace of mind, but in reality you should face no problems even if you just board the next service and wait until the TM^‡(resolve) comes round. That might need to be the case if your incoming delay means you have to rush to catch the next applicable service. If that happens then there should be little problem in the TM checking that you were indeed delayed on the first leg of your journey.

[basset44]

Hi All,

Thanks great to know about this just to clarify.

To travel back to Cardiff from Brighton we could get an advanced fare of ^12 each, on a Saturday.

To break journey at Reading it would cost ^30.40 each changing at Gatwick or via London and ^10 advance from Reading to Cardiff the next day.

Or a ^7 each advance to Swindon change at Gatwick, Reading 9 minute wait then to Swindon arriving 13.55 then a ^4 each advance from Swindon on any train back to Reading provide it is after 5 mins connection time. then ^10 pound advance to Cardiff on Sunday

okay takes an extra hour and doubling back but a considerable saving.

Basset