Split tickets, advance fares and connecting trains

[whole diary]

[Ross H]

Until a couple of months ago there used to be a very useful thread about this, with quotes from the Manual (I think) about how with an Advance ticket you could catch an earlier connecting train at the beginning of your journey, or a later one at the end, if it happened to be a service which was not reservable. But I've searched for ages and can't find it now!

The scenario is this. I'm intending to have a holiday in Scotland in August, travelling Exmouth - Perth and back from Glasgow- Exmouth, using a Highland Rover in between. It looks as if there are some good deals for the whole journey if I bag them as soon as they are released (^58.50 to Perth, ^42 back from Glasgow), otherwise splitting at York on the way there and/or Wolverhampton on the way back look like good bets.

The question is, if I buy an advance single from Exmouth to York, and I want to play safe with the connetion at Exeter St Davids, can I catch an earlier train from Exmouth to Exeter than the one specified? I'm 99% sure the answer is yes but now I can't find it anywhere.

This question isn't really about liability - with a journey that takes all day, it's about the practicalities of not wanting to miss the train from Exeter which has my reserved seats on it!

[paul7575]

Yes you are right.

The actual FAQ^▸ (Frequently Asked Questions) is this:

Q25. Can passengers on an advance ticket travel on earlier connecting trains?

A. Yes if it is non-reservable, no if it is reservable.

From here: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=10103.msg104986#msg104986

[inspector_blakey]

Going to merge this into the existing thread and re-title the whole lot so it's easier to find...

[Chris from Nailsea]

Thank you, inspector_blakey. 

[Ross H]

Many thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for.

[Ross H]

Q25. Can passengers on an advance ticket travel on earlier connecting trains?

A. Yes if it is non-reservable, no if it is reservable.

I've got another issue arising out of the same set of journeys and wonder if this is covered in the FAQs^▸ (Frequently Asked Questions).

We've purchased two advance singles from Settle (Yorkshire) to Exmouth, "Xc and connections", changing at Leeds and Exeter St Davids.

The question is whether we can get on the Settle to Leeds train at Skipton rather than Settle, ie. joining at an intermediate stop. The conditions of advance tickets seem pretty clear that we can't do this.

However, they also seem pretty clear that they are only valid on the specified trains, yet applying FAQ25 we could travel on an earlier train from Settle to Leeds because it's non-reservable.

My question is whether there's an equivalent FAQ enabling us to travel short on connecting trains, even though we obviously can't travel short on the "main" leg of the journey where we have a reservation (ie. the Xc leg)?

If this isn't possible, here are other options I've considered:-

1. Amend the tickets - not possible as change to station of origin is not allowed.

2. Travel from Skipton to Settle first (assuming there's a suitable train which I haven't checked yet), obviously having purchased single tickets. Seems to be the cheapest option as it's a fiver each, but clearly a bit of a waste of time riding up and down the line for the sake of it!

3. Buy single tickets from Skipton to Leeds; we would then have undisputably valid tickets for that leg of the journey, and we'd be getting on the Leeds-Exeter train where we'd have got on it anyway.

Anyway, I live in hope that there might be an FAQ covering this. Skipton doesn't seem to have barriers, so if there is a solution I'm only going to have to explain it to a person, rather than a machine!

[grahame]

2. Travel from Skipton to Settle first (assuming there's a suitable train which I haven't checked yet), obviously having purchased single tickets. Seems to be the cheapest option as it's a fiver each, but clearly a bit of a waste of time riding up and down the line for the sake of it!

3. Buy single tickets from Skipton to Leeds; we would then have undisputably valid tickets for that leg of the journey, and we'd be getting on the Leeds-Exeter train where we'd have got on it anyway.

Have a look at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=7551.0

2. Yes - you're allowed to do this
3. No - you're not supposed to do this.  You have to make the complete journey

I am answering with my best understanding / view of the rules. There are times these rules can lead to some darned silly situations.  I was returning on a late night train from London to Bradford-on-Avon, using the last connection of the day.   The train from London was delayed, and the connection at Bath was going to miss.  I was actually travelling to Melksham (to where the last train had left a number of hours ago).  Easiest for all concerned - call up my lift and ask to be collected at Chippenham.   By the rules - go to Bath, where the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) would have to lay on a taxi.

[JayMac]

grahame is correct. The only valid option, without amending your original Advance Purchase tickets, is to travel from Skipton to Settle first.

Doing anything other than the full journey as specified on your AP ticket could leave you liable to additional costs. Whether you are caught starting short, particularly as you'd be changing trains at Leeds anyway, is another matter. But it's not a course of action I can endorse or condone, despite the minuscule chances of being stopped and questioned about your journey.

[Ross H]

Many thanks Grahame and Bignosemac. I don't want to do anything unlawful, hence the questions. And my wife and the friends who have invited us to stay think my brain has been stolen by aliens, because I'm saying that "we can't get on that train at that station, even though it stops there and we've got tickets for it"! I don't mind having to pay for a ticket back to Settle to start the journey; what's really daft is having to get on a train and trundle up and down the line for the sake of it.

I think it's scary how easy it is to be caught out by these restrictions. I have a horrible feeling that I only know about them because I'm sad enough to spend my lunchtime reading this forum. OK, I know it's in the T&Cs, but although the need to stick to the same origin and destination is pretty clear on RedSpottedHanky where I bought the tickets (as I couldn't get any of the trainline-based websites to price Settle-Exmouth via a sensible route), Cross Country's summary of conditions or restrictions at http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/Tickets_and_timetables/Train_fares/Advance.aspxdoesn't mention this. Having recently travelled by train in Poland where I resorted to drawing pictures and diagrams to explain what I wanted, I pity any foreign visitors to the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) whose English isn't up to understanding these T&Cs.

One final question, Bignosemac, you mention the possibility of amending my advance singles but I'm under the impression you can only amend date and time?

[grahame]

I pity any foreign visitors to the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) whose English isn't up to understanding these T&Cs.

Sadly, many aspects of the fare system confound overseas visitors. I can offer numerous (including recent) cases where our visitors have been sold far more expensive tickets than they needed, and advanced (tethered) tickets for a train based on their best estimated time for flight arrivals which have resulted in them having to pay again. And I've had customers in tears when a genuine advanced connection failed and their English was too poor to convince the next person to check their ticket of this.

[bobm]

I've just written to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) after my first train on an Advance left EARLY on Tuesday!

[inspector_blakey]

I pity any foreign visitors to the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) whose English isn't up to understanding these T&Cs.

I suppose it's possible to make a case that in fact the T&Cs on Advance tickets are exceedingly simple: they are only valid for you to make the exact journey printed on the ticket and nothing else, subject to the rider that as long as you turn up in good time to catch your first train, you're covered for any disruption that causes you to miss a connection en route.

I tend to find the conditions of super/off-peak tickets more troublesome because there's very little consistency in their time restrictions across different routes, and they definitely need to be looked up on a case-by-case basis.

[Brucey]

I've seen on Twitter that one of my friends from uni has questioned London Midland over an advance fare.  He paid ^7.50 per person for an advance fare, booked online yesterday.  He travelled 15 minutes after the booked train and was charged ^29 per person for a SDS.

Unfortunately, he's another victim of failing to read the full conditions.

[Milky Bar Kid]

Left early?? What service???

[bobm]

19:58 Teignmouth to Exeter St Davids.  According to station clock it left at 19:56:44 - although Live Departures claimed it as "On Time".  My watch agreed with the station clock.