The Spanish Inquisition?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Scene at a local manned station yesterday ... young lady walks up to the ticket counter and asks for a child single to [place]

Clerk:  "How old are you"
(Young lady answers)
Clerk: "When is your Birthday"
(Young lady answers)
Clerk: "Which year were you born"
(Young lady answers)
Clerk "How old will you be on your next Birthday"
(Young lady answers)

Clerk sells the requested ticket ...

Now, I suspect that the ticket clerk felt that the young lady wasn't quite as young as she needed to be to travel on a child ticket, and I suspect that he assumed she was buying the ticket for her own use.   I also suspect this scene is played out quite frequently.

Is there any sort of proof-of-age that can be requested by staff?  How aggressive can the questioning get?  If asked for a "Child Single" don't they have to sell that anyway, given that there's no proof that the ticket is being bought for the traveller?  After all, as I understand it I can legitimately buy just such a child single (and I'm no child) ... provided that it's used by a child for whom I purchase it.  In fact, come to think of it, I've done so in the past at that very ticket desk!

[ChrisB]

Indeed, the first question ought to have been "is this ticket for use by you or someone else?"

[EBrown]

Having spoken to some gate line staff at Oxford, they seem to just say "How old are you" (answer), then "What is your date of birth. They said that it quite often works as people give the wrong DoB for that age.

[noddingdonkey]

I normally ask when they'll be 18. If they say 'next year' (as they often do) you've got your answer!

[ChrisB]

Good question! They forgetits 16 fir a child ticket, not18

[vacman]

technically the passenger is required to prove their age for a child ticket as a child ticket is a discounted ticket, the burden of proof is on them.

[Chris from Nailsea]

I'm rather amused to see here that staff have developed their own 'work-arounds' for dealing with the question of whether young people are in fact young enough to qualify for child tickets.

As a matter of interest, what 'evidence of age' could they realistically produce?  Rather more usually, young people want to be able to show they are older than they actually are, so 'borrowing' an older sibling's identity won't be appropriate in these cases.

I've noted a fair few instances of 'young people' on trains asking to buy a child ticket from the guard, which is then sold without query.  Personally, I'd have put the age of many such individuals as being in their 'late teens' at least, but without any means of verifying that, I assume staff may take the view that it's better to just sell the child ticket and move on, rather than risk a tirade of abuse by questioning it?

Just curious. 

[Ollie]

As a matter of interest, what 'evidence of age' could they realistically produce?  Rather more usually, young people want to be able to show they are older than they actually are, so 'borrowing' an older sibling's identity won't be appropriate in these cases.

I've had someone show me a provisional driving license when asked for id.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Teenagers, eh? 

[EBrown]

I've had someone show me a provisional driving license when asked for id.

For the majority of cases: oh dear! Although, had this person been disabled, they could have applied for their (provisional) licence prior to their 16th birthday (up to three months before).

Although the licence would only be valid (for driving) on their 16th birthday. It would act as proof they were 15.

[vacman]

i've seen many kids carrying photocopies of their birth certificates or passports as they keep getting challenged about their age.

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the Hull Daily Mail:

Boy quizzed by police after train conductor refused to believe he was under 16

A teenager was marched from a train after accusations he fraudulently bought a children's ticket.

Curtis Richards was met by the British Transport Police at Hull's Paragon Interchange after a conductor refused to believe he was under 16 years old.

Curtis, 15, had been given an ultimatum ^ to either get off the train early, or face police when it arrived at its last stop in Hull.

But Northern Rail said they acted appropriately and called the police after Curtis struggled to give his correct birthday and used "bad language".

His mum, Lesley Singleton, 43, said: "It wasn't right. It was appalling, scary and embarrassing for him. Northern Rail needs to change its attitude."

Curtis was travelling to Hull from Goole to collect forms for the Royal Navy. The teenager, who attends Goole High School, wants to sign up to the Navy when he leaves education.

He said: "I was really worried when I saw the police. It was a bit embarrassing because it was at the train station."

Curtis, who lives with his mum in Goole, was on a lunchtime Northern Rail service on Monday, January 30.

He had bought the ticket from a Goole station member of staff, who did not question his age.

He then boarded the train and was questioned about the ticket by a conductor, who asked to see identification.

Northern Rail says he then gave an incorrect birthday, which would have made him 17, before giving his correct birthday.

But Curtis said: "He came and asked for my ticket and asked how old I was. I said I was 15 but he didn't believe me. He took my ticket off me and starting giving me loads of grief. He gave me two choices ^ I could either get off at Brough or carry on to Hull and let the police meet me."

Curtis, who didn't have enough money to buy another ticket, phoned his mum from the train so she could verify his age.

Lesley said: "Curtis told me what was happening and I just couldn't believe it. I told Curtis to put me on the phone with him, but the conductor refused, saying it was against company policy."

When Curtis arrived at Hull Paragon Interchange, he was marched from the train and questioned.

Once the police ran a background check on Curtis and were able to confirm he was indeed 15, they released him.

Pete Myers, head of service quality for Northern Rail, said: "Our conductor asked the passenger to provide proof of age as he was travelling with a child's ticket but appeared to the conductor to be older than 15. The passenger then provided inconsistent birth dates and had no proof of age when questioned. As the passenger reacted with abusive language, the conductor requested British Transport Police to meet them at Hull station.

"We would recommend anyone travelling as a child has the relevant identification to verify their age."

Just a couple of points from me on this particular story, if I may:

My own 15 year old son tends to get a bit 'lippy' when challenged about anything: it's a teenager thing, so while I'm certainly not condoning it, I can understand that it's sometimes intimidating for a fifteen year old to be challenged in public in that way;

And the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) in this case have not offered any practical suggestions as to what could be acceptable as 'evidence of age' for a fifteen year old schoolboy?  Birth certificates don't have any photographic verification, and not all 15 year olds have passports. 

Chris. 

[devon_metro]

And the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) in this case have not offered any practical suggestions as to what could be acceptable as 'evidence of age' for a fifteen year old schoolboy?  Birth certificates don't have any photographic verification, and not all 15 year olds have passports. 

Can't imagine many parents trusting them to carry them round either!

[JayMac]

Teenagers getting 'lippy' is not to be condoned, but I fully understand it. I used to be one once.  

It's a difficult area for rail staff to police.

There are some things under 16's can do to prevent situations like this. TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) will, I believe, if asked nicely, issue a season ticket photocard to under 16s, which will have a DoB on it, even if they aren't buying a season ticket. Go along to a station with a passport sized photo and birth certificate.

Alternatively anyone of any age (under 16 with parental consent) can apply for a CitizenCard.

Both these options incur a cost to individual, but that maybe worthwhile for piece of mind.

That said, rail staff should continue to have the right to challenge anyone they suspect may be travelling on an invalid ticket. And if someone gets tripped up with the simple questions, "How old are you?" or "What is your date of birth?", then that will understandably raise suspicions.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Some consistency from the rail staff would be helpful, though:

Curtis ... had bought the ticket from a Goole station member of staff, who did not question his age.

He then boarded the train and was questioned about the ticket by a conductor, who asked to see identification.