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Author Topic: UK electricity generation needs and methods.  (Read 8318 times)
TonyK
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« on: July 28, 2012, 17:06:43 »

If, as seems likely, oil prices continue to rise then the economy will be strangled because goods are unable to transfer to rail (that should have been freed from oil and gas prices by then except for the same group on Nimbys opposition to wind and nuclear power).
 

Harsh! Nuclear works, is reliable, and is safe. Thorium power looks like the next step. Roll on Hinley C and Oldbury! Wind turbines onshore generate huge opposition from anyone in the area where they are to be built, and cries of "Nimby!" from those who live elsewhere. They also generate huge amounts of subsidy for the owners of the turbines and land, and small amounts of unpredictable intermittent power that the grid has trouble using in the mix. They are the biggest lie ever told, and I can't understand why the Government backs them. The Prime Minister's father-in-law earns a tidy profit from turbines on his land, which obviously is irrelevant.
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« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2012, 17:37:02 »

All wind farms should be axed and ripped down. They are an ineffective source of power that scars the countryside and is becoming a hazard for birds and ships.

Nuclear is the only (current) viable way forward. This is sceintific fact.

The gov need to commit to building a new generation of power stations to provide most our power needs.

Then shut all gas and coal power stations. There still is a place for hydoelectric and tidal for water supply and flood prevention. Solar panels are a waste of time in this country, besides more CO2 is released making solar panels than is saved using them!
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JayMac
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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2012, 18:42:15 »

I live within sight of the decommissioned Oldbury nuclear power station. I have no problem whatsoever with it being redeveloped for two EPR reactors. The sooner the better.

Come on HMG - award those contracts.
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2012, 18:45:05 »

All wind farms should be axed and ripped down. They are an ineffective source of power that scars the countryside and is becoming a hazard for birds and ships.

Nuclear is the only (current) viable way forward. This is sceintific fact.

The gov need to commit to building a new generation of power stations to provide most our power needs.

Then shut all gas and coal power stations. There still is a place for hydoelectric and tidal for water supply and flood prevention. Solar panels are a waste of time in this country, besides more CO2 is released making solar panels than is saved using them!

If it is a scientific fact then please could you cite the reference to the peer reviewed journal that provides the justifiction for this assertion.

In my opinion (making no claims as to scientific fact) we need a diverse range of sources of power to give us flexibility in what seems to me a very uncertain future. I would agree that nuclear power should be a part of this as well as renewable sources such as wind, hydro and tidal power. Opponents of wind power suggest that it can only form a very small percentage of our supply because the wind does not always blow.  However they underestimate the contribution it can make suggesting it could never contribute more than 10%.  Yet Denmark already generates over 30% of its power from wind according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark.

The real reasons for their opposition seems to be that they don't like the look of them, and somthing about the noise of which I can find no justification (though I am open to more information on this).  The conservative leader of Lincolnshire County Council recently suggested some criteria that would have excluded them from anywhere in Lincolnshire.  If such provisions were brought in then I would suggest that they should find a site for a nuclear power station in the county or vote to cut themselves off from the national grid!

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Btline
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2012, 18:56:24 »

It is scientific fact due to elimination! I'm sorry, if you believe otherwise, I don't know what planet you're on.

Wind - we simply cannot rely on it. If it is too windy or not windy enough it is useless. Why bother? We'd have to cover vast swathes of the Country and shoreline - even then we're at the mersey of the weather - no thanks!

Solar - as above

Non renewables - carbon dioxide emmisions = no

Geothermal - not in the UK (United Kingdom)

HEP - ok, but you'd have to flood more valleys = lost homes, habitats etc. So no more than currently please.

Tidial - ok, but linited places. Also affects habitats.

So on the process of elimination, we are left with:

Nuclear - renewable, safe, no more expensive than the opposite. Could have 80% of our needs by just building more stations - that would affect little of the country.
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ellendune
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2012, 19:26:58 »

It is scientific fact due to elimination! I'm sorry, if you believe otherwise, I don't know what planet you're on.

Then I am sure you can provide me with a number of references from peer viewed journals to support this view.

Wind - we simply cannot rely on it. If it is too windy or not windy enough it is useless. Why bother? We'd have to cover vast swathes of the Country and shoreline - even then we're at the mersey of the weather - no thanks!

Did you read my post - it seems not.  By the way the UK (United Kingdom) is one of the windiest places in Europe!

Solar - as above

In my opinion small scale solar as a standard addition to buildings (particularly as panels are now available that are not distiguishable from slates).  It would also complement wind power as it is often sunny when there is no wind.

Non renewables - carbon dioxide emmisions = no

I agree this should not be even a medium term option.  However it may be a short term necessity to stop the lights going out. Especially as other forms listed above are so difficult to get through planning because of the NIMBYs who seem to believe we do not need to do anything.

Geothermal - not in the UK

Surprisingly it would be viable in a number of parts of the UK. Some work is going on.

HEP - ok, but you'd have to flood more valleys = lost homes, habitats etc. So no more than currently please.

Oh if you are thinking of conventional large reservoirs - then I gree with you that there is not much potential.  However, there is much interest in small scale HEP untilising some of the sites of the many watermills that once dotted our country seemingly without becoming a blot on the landscape or flooding valleys. 

Tidial - ok, but linited places. Also affects habitats.

Habitats are an issue. On the one hand those habitats will be treatened by sea level rise if we do nothing. On the other there is starting to be some interest iin developing sea bed turbines that would not need a barrage and could potentially be cheaper and have less impact on habitats.

You also forgot:
 
    Wave power, which could make a significant contribution. 
    Energy from waste - which could cotribute to district heating. 
    Heat pumps to reduce energy needed to heat buildings.

So on the process of elimination, we are left with:
Nuclear - renewable, safe, no more expensive than the opposite. Could have 80% of our needs by just building more stations - that would affect little of the country.

Well yes this has a part to play as well. If the power stations are properly designed with due consideration to the risks. We need to ensure that we do not contaminate the coast and sea bed like we have at Dounreay and Windscale.  We also need to remeber that discharging hot cooling water even if it is not chemically or radialogically polluted still has an impact on habitats.  Use of the cooling water in district heating schemes would be one way, but we would have to put the stations neaer to where people live.  Also think where in the world the reserves of Uranium are. 

In summary there is not a black and white answer.  We need a diverse set of sources. As with so many things it is grey.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 19:32:41 by ellendune » Logged
John R
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2012, 19:31:44 »

What about carbon capture technology? Still in its early days, but the technology is likely to get there in the next 10 years given sufficient investment. (Just one thing you forgot in your process of elimination to justify "scientific fact".)  

And CC is probably a lot cheaper than the billions being spent on offshore windfarms that have a habit of delivering zero power during winter cold snaps as the high pressure causing the cold weather also means no wind.

And whilst I'm generally pro-nuclear, I'm not sure that your statement that they are no more expensive than the opposite (sic) is true - after all do we really know the long term decommissioning costs?

By the way, why is Liverpool's weather of relevance?
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JayMac
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2012, 19:47:01 »

Here's an interesting one. On-shore wind farms can benefit agriculture. Fact. Scientific and peer reviewed.

http://www.ameslab.gov/news/news-releases/wind-turbines
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2012, 19:47:54 »

My own view is that which I apply to all my personal decisions and that "Do not put all your eggs in one basket". Whether it is infra-structure investment or cash investment, this applies equally.
However the recent blogs seem to be getting away from the question "Will HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) get Axed?"
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JayMac
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2012, 19:54:15 »

However the recent blogs seem to be getting away from the question "Will HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) get Axed?"

Agreed. The posts involved have been hived off and a put into this new thread.
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TonyK
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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2012, 22:34:38 »


In my opinion (making no claims as to scientific fact) we need a diverse range of sources of power to give us flexibility in what seems to me a very uncertain future. I would agree that nuclear power should be a part of this as well as renewable sources such as wind, hydro and tidal power. Opponents of wind power suggest that it can only form a very small percentage of our supply because the wind does not always blow.  However they underestimate the contribution it can make suggesting it could never contribute more than 10%.  Yet Denmark already generates over 30% of its power from wind according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark.

The real reasons for their opposition seems to be that they don't like the look of them, and somthing about the noise of which I can find no justification (though I am open to more information on this).  The conservative leader of Lincolnshire County Council recently suggested some criteria that would have excluded them from anywhere in Lincolnshire.  If such provisions were brought in then I would suggest that they should find a site for a nuclear power station in the county or vote to cut themselves off from the national grid!



The total number of power stations decommissioned by Denmark because of their building of thousands of wind turbines is.... (drum roll)...... zero. Denmark has the highest-priced electricity in Europe - not a scientific fact, but a financial one. See this website for details. Others are available, they all say the same thing. Denmark has a network of combined heat and power stations, which have served it well. The windfarms produce power with great variability, so the CHPs have to be fired up and ready for when the wind drops. When the windfarms produce too much power, Denmark give their excess free to Norway and Sweden. When the wind falls, they buy it back at a price. In Britain, we pay the wind companies to switch the machines off when they produce too much. Norway is powered almost entirely (99%) by hydro plants, which can be switched on and off almost instantly. Sweden is a 50/50 mix of hydro and nuclear. Both have a very small wind sector.

The Atlantic Array will, if it is ever built, wreck the fishing grounds. Additionally, visitors to Lundy, Ilfracombe, the Gower peninsula and other lovely places will have to watch electricity being generated instead of the peaceful seascape they currently enjoy. Even if it works as well as RWE nPower say, and no windfarm has ever come close to matching the claims of the promoters, it will generate less than Hinkley C. That will spoil the (already spoiled) view for a lot fewer people.

Starting a nuclear plant from cold takes several weeks. Starting a coal-fired plant takes several days. Gas-powered plants, like Seabank in Avonmouth, react quickly to demand. Wind power cannot be regulated or demanded. Our ideal, carbon-lite mix would see nuclear providing the "base load" - what we need when everyone is in bed. Nuclear is at its most efficient when it is switched on 24 hours every day. Bio methane powered plants would take up the next tranche, with natural gas for the rest. Whilst I do not like to agree with Btline, wind power should be consigned to the recycling box of history, now. That one by the M4, the only one Londoners ever really see, produced ^100,000 electricity and ^140,000 in subsidies last year, according to the Torygraph. Because of the time lag, conventional power stations with an equivalent power to that produced by wind have to be on standby, so that the man in the national grid whose job is to watch TV, and add in units when needed because Eastenders has finished, can simply push a button. I don't know why, but the frequency of 50 Hz is the thing that matters most, and he reacts to that. This means we have coal-fired stations running on standby, or "spinning reserve" to use the jargon, using almost as much coal and producing nearly as much CO2 as they would if they were producing electric. It isn't like cycling to work, it's more like cycling to work, but having someone follow you in the car in case you get tired.

The billions we are spending on wind lunacy would be better spent on things like LED light bulbs. I swapped my 50W spotlights for 4W LEDs, and cut my electricity use for lighting my kitchen from 400W to 32W. Magnetic induction hobs would also cut consumption on a significant scale. The big problem with wind is that it provides power companies with an incentive to sell us power that does not have a vast running cost once built, with a guaranteed return over 25 years. The big windmills are noisy. I gave evidence at a public inquiry into a wind farm, the first time in my 56 years that I have ever objected to a planning proposal. This is for 9 300 ft turbines between Exmoor, which I love, and Dartmoor, which I really like, and somewhere I would not be given permission to build a bungalow if I asked. Someone who lives close to Fullabrook windfarm also spoke, telling the inspector how he doesn't notice during the day, but at night when all is quiet, it sounds like having 22 concrete mixers running close by. On some bright sunny days, he has to close the curtains and switch the lights on because of the shadows of the blades.

There is also the matter of pollution to consider. A typical 3 MW wind turbine contains 2 tonnes of Neodymium, a rare earth metal, in the permanent magnets of the generator. Conventional power stations use copper coils. This article, admittedly from the Daily Mail, so not really trustworthy, shows that we are not producing pollution-free electricity, we are exporting the pollution to countries like China, where dissent is dealt with in ways we might find harsh.

IMHO (in my humble opinion), the biggest problem we have with wind power is that it diverts resources from finding long-term solutions to the quick political fix. This is nothing new; when the Queen (God bless her) flicked the switch to turn on the supply at Calder Hall in 1956, we knew it would not last forever. We built many more plants, each with a known lifespan, yet we did not plan for the future, because our governments last for only a maximum of 5 years, and don't like to upset anybody in the last 3 of those years. Commissioning, planning, and building a nuclear plant takes longer than that. Wind farms are a quick fix, because they supply guilt-free electricity for politicians in London to make capital out of, lobbied by mainly foreign companies since we privatised our power, but are  built in far-flung places inhabited by people who don't really matter.

Thorium power could be the next game-changer. Thorium is not very radioactive, and has a short half-life. It will never go "critical", because of this. It needs a small amount of plutonium to fire it up. It is of no use to terrorists or rogue states. It is abundant, several hundreds of times more so than the uranium fuelling today's reactors. It is embarrassing, but India may be the country that cracks the puzzle, and we may be importing technology from a country we were giving aid to as recently as 2010.

Until about 1973, power was cheap in the UK (United Kingdom). It isn't now, but we haven't adjusted to the new reality yet. In the future, our heating, cooking, and motive power will be electricity. We can never rely on wind, and it is about time the powers that be admitted this inconvenient truth.
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2012, 00:00:52 »

This is a fascinating debate; not only for its own sake (I am very interested in the future energy situation) but also as it raises some interesting comparisons between the acceptability of noisy unsightly wind turbines and noisy unsightly electrified railways (particularly HS2 (The next High Speed line(s))).
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2012, 00:13:24 »

I don't think wind turbines are as useless as some make out. However, I am frustrated that wind is the only renewable the government have done much pushing for. The baseload power generation, in my opinion, should be made up of mostly completly submurged tidal stream turbines (note: not barrages) and nuclear power stations, but I think wind turbines probably do have a place in the generation mix (though something needs to be done about pylons, which are much more of an eyesore than most modern wind turbines).

I believe I have read of a proposal for a fossil-fuel-powered (diesel perhaps) generation station which I think was supposed to start up and shut-down almost instantly as back up for wind farms. If true, that sort of thing would mean we would only need to burn fossil fuels when it isn't windy, rather than having to keep coal-fired stations running even when it is windy to prvide power when it isn't. Pumped-storage hydro-power might also be good company for wind generation (when you have more wind than you need pump water up, when there isn't enough wind let the water flow).
« Last Edit: July 29, 2012, 12:08:11 by Rhydgaled » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2012, 08:41:26 »

First I will say I do support renewable source generation.

Renewable's are not as "green" as they are often made out, the energy consumed in their manufacture, construction and then ultimate decommissioning and demolition per kW generated over their life is very similar to that of a fossil fuel generation plant.

On the nuclear verses fossil fuel, the levels of background radiation from a coal fired power station are higher than from a nuclear plant, there are concerns over the waste from nuclear and the legacy of burring radio active decommissioned plant people often forget the levels of toxic waste from coal burning there are quite a lot of Welsh values filled in with waste from coal mines all of this waste has toxins, the burning of coal produces some very nasty byproducts again a lot of this went to landfill; dangerous legacy for future generations who might dig it up. 

No matter how we generate electricity their is an environmental impact, today we have a far better understanding of these impacts what is missing is clear policy, there was one in the 1930's the Governments decision to build the National Grid and the decision in the 1950's to build large power stations connected to the National Grid we are lacking that vision today
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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2012, 09:01:38 »

Fascinating topic.

I heartily recommend the following book by David MacKay for a lucid, rational, numerate discussion of the issues surrounding UK (United Kingdom) national energy: http://withouthotair.com/ (and - yes - he does the sums and advocates widespread electrification....)

It really is brilliantly well written - extremely readable.
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