Extending Crossrail to Reading - ongoing discussion, merged topic

[whole diary]

[Chris from Nailsea]

All non 125 stock should be BANNED from the fast lines.

BANNED, or AXED, Btline? 

[Chris125]

I just checked and the Class 700 EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)'s coming (eventually) to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) as an add-on to the FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) order are 100 mph for FCC, but maybe they can be upped to 110 mph for the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) like the Class 350/1's on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) have been "to make better use of train paths" (according to Wikipedia).

Not quite, the Class 700 units are specifically for Thameslink services.

However Thameslink will get an interim fleet of 110mph 387s which could be used on Great Western services once the 700s have arrived.

110mph would help but we are back to the same differences we currently have with the turbos and 125's if the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) class 800 is increased to 140mph although this is only possible with a completely new signaling system and this would also help with the pathing.

Don't forget that the GWML is being resignalled with ERTMS^▸ (European Rail Traffic Management System.) at the same time as electrification, so this will provide the necessary cab signalling for 140mph - the effect on capacity will remain however, probably ruling out higher speeds for the foreseeable future.

Chris

[Electric train]

I would surmise that a line speed on the Main Lines of 225 kph is unlikely east of Reading the line speed remaining at 200 kph therefore should any 387's get cascaded their 180 kph will fit nicely even the 319's 160 kph will still work.

387's and 319's will have a quicker 0 to 95 kph than the class 800's

(the use of kph is because that is what the line speeds will be stated in also its my antidote to OD of Farage in the media this weekend  )



Moderator note: Discussion on the use of metric and imperial units of measurement and the teaching of said units in school through the years has been split into  a separate topic:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14330.0

[eightf48544]

i presumme that the Relief lines wll be around 140 kph in new money, therefore, I would suggest that to make maaximum use of the the 4 track railway and new signalling there should be a number of 120/40 kph crossovers,  both left and right from Main to Relief. The speed would be set to match Relief Line speed after the crossover. This would mean that all trains (bar frieght) could cross at line speed without having to slow excessively. However, this would be prohibitively expensive in both provision and maintenance.

However it  would make full use of the capabilities, max speed, accelerartion and braking, of the stock and the new signalling.

[Electric train]

i presumme that the Relief lines wll be around 140 kph in new money, therefore, I would suggest that to make maaximum use of the the 4 track railway and new signalling there should be a number of 120/40 kph crossovers,  both left and right from Main to Relief. The speed would be set to match Relief Line speed after the crossover. This would mean that all trains (bar frieght) could cross at line speed without having to slow excessively. However, this would be prohibitively expensive in both provision and maintenance.

However it  would make full use of the capabilities, max speed, accelerartion and braking, of the stock and the new signalling.

There are only two ways for this to be effective -

• Grade separation i.e. dive unders or flyovers between the Mains and Reliefs
  Adopt the same four track arrangement used on the LNE (ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line)) which is both Fasts as the centre pair of lines and the Slows outside of these

Neither are cheap or quick to achive

[TaplowGreen]

Third item from Maidenhead Advertiser 29 Oct.

There has been quite a lot of correspondance about parking in Maidenhead in general recently. This week there's a letter headed "Where will all the Extra Commuters Park?".

Asking that very question about the projected growth in users of Maidenhead Station with Crossrail.

Seems a very sensible question and probably applies to all Crossrail served Stations even Taplow!

Thought for Moderators should we have a Dedicated Crossrail thread for issues like this?

My view, and it has been for a long time, is that Crossrail does NOT work West of Paddington, even going to Reading has not changed my view

Why on Earth would Crossrail not work West of Paddington? I for one am looking forward to going direct from Taplow to Bond Street without changing! (.....and it's doing wonders for the value of my house!)

[ellendune]

My view, and it has been for a long time, is that Crossrail does NOT work West of Paddington, even going to Reading has not changed my view

Could you explain this remark please. I am somewhat bemused by it.

[John R]

So am I. The benefit of not having to change at Paddington in the morning, and having a reliably timed through journey on the way home (as opposed to either leaving lots of time or run the risk of getting to the mainline station and finding your train has just left) seem considerable.  That must outweigh the fact that your journey into Paddington may take a few minutes longer (obviously the further west you start the more this is likely to be), especially when considering it's likely to take around 5 minutes to change onto the Crossrail platforms.

[eightf48544]

Why does Crossrail not work West of Paddington.

Basically it works from Paddington to Shenfield and Abbey Wood you have a 24 tph Metro service spliting 12 TPH^▸ (trains per hour) on each branch. With High Density rolling stock.

Beacause of capacity problems there are only 10 tph West of Padd. Which means terminating and emptying 14tph at Eastbourne Terrace.

The trains coming from the West have to be slotted into a 2.5 minute gap at Westbourne Park.

Perhaps we will need Japanese style pushers to empty the trains at Padd!

Shenfield is roughly 20 miles out and Abbey Wood around 15. Reading is 36 miles. How far do you want to travel on Metro stock?

West of Padd there are 4 terminal stations Heathrow, West Drayton, Maidenhead and Reading. Which is at least 4 vital sets of points

Bourne End and Henley lose their through trains so connection issues at Twyford and Maidenhead. Twyford Maidenhead are likely to lose their semi fasts, which even with the change at Padd are likely to be quicker to Crossrail destinations. 

It also reduces freight capacity which we should be encouraging.
 
An operators nightmare.

I will conceed that now it goes through to Reading it is not so disruptive for commuters to and from stations between  Ealing Broadway and Slough to Twyford and Reading. Plus Burnham and Taplow will still have through trains to Reading.

The pity is that had the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) been electrified and we had a mainline style commuter service  Crossrail could have gone else where West of london.
 

[IndustryInsider]

Why does Crossrail not work West of Paddington.

I certainly understand where eightf48544 is coming from and I share some of his concerns, principally with how they are going to deal with terminating trains at such a busy station with only the two platforms.  The operation will have to be very slick indeed to not cause backlog's because it does take more time to get everybody off of a terminating train.  If Paddington had a third platform that would not have been such an issue as a terminating train could be emptied in one whilst a westbound train arrives at the other, but as I understand it there's just the two platforms dealing with all east and westbound trains.  It's best addressed by getting on with building the link to the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) so that another 4-8 trains per hour can continue west of Paddington before heading north-west towards Tring, but even then I can't see it always running smoothly.

I'm not so concerned about the pathing of trains west of Paddington.  Airport Junction is the main pinch-point but that is being dramatically remodelled to reduce conflicts as I speak.  West Drayton will only be used in the peaks, Maidenhead, if designed sensibly with a reversing siding between the relief lines, should be no problem, and Reading has plenty of platform capacity.  Bourne End/Henley direct trains are obviously a loss, but some of them are hardly express trains at present and you'll basically be changing at Maidenhead rather than Paddington so the 'loss of a direct train' is a bit of a misnomer.

Freight is an interesting one.  We'll have to see how that develops, but getting less freight going through central London is something East-West Rail could help to achieve, and off-peak it's only really from Airport Junction to Acton where the Relief Lines will have more passenger trains than currently - grade separation at Acton, a remodelled Airport Junction, and Greenford trains running as a shuttle from the West Ealing bay all helping to address that.

Like I say though, I do have my concerns and will be watching with interest...

[ChrisB]

Everyone will be expecting to leave the Padd terminators, so will be ready to alight....bear in mind they'll be 99% commuters wanting a seat on trains exiting from Padd so they won't be sleeping. I think they'll cope, and if someone gets carried over, the train will be back in the eastbound platform quite quickly. Yes, I do think that'll happen occasionally. It does in Japan.

Eastbound from west of Padd will need to run to time to retain their slot - but I'm guessing if any miss their slot, then they'll do as the tube does & run them out of order. Are they trains running from west of Padd to east of Liverpool street, or do these terminate there, and vice versa - so if you need to make that kind of journey a change will be necessary? The advantage would be that late runners will simply slot in on arrival at the portal & everything sorts out at the other end on terminating. Until we see the xx the hour service pattern it will be difficult to determine.

Commuters will be looking for the quickest trip for them, not whether they can get a more comfy seat & take longer to get there. Don't forget that Old Oak Common station is coming, and that will be the major interchange station, not Padd. So the trip in from the outlying stations won't be quite as long eventually.

[IndustryInsider]

Everyone will be expecting to leave the Padd terminators, so will be ready to alight....bear in mind they'll be 99% commuters wanting a seat on trains exiting from Padd so they won't be sleeping. I think they'll cope, and if someone gets carried over, the train will be back in the eastbound platform quite quickly. Yes, I do think that'll happen occasionally. It does in Japan.

Yes I know that in theory that's the case, but I've had years of experience of passenger behaviour on terminating trains (both as a dispatcher and driver), and their leisurely actions, which leads me to be concerned.  You basically have an average dwell time at the station of around 60-90 seconds in order for 24tph timetable to work.  That's not much for a train that could potentially have several hundred people on board.  Within those 60-90 seconds you have to allow for instances of:

1)  Passenger so engrossed in his headphones he doesn't realise he's arrived at Paddington
2)  Group of tourists thinking it's the train to Heathrow and getting on by mistake
3)  Large family group with pushchairs and luggage taking their time to get their act together
4)  Passenger confined to a wheelchair being assisted on the train
5)  Passenger information systems displaying the wrong train so everybody thinking it's the Reading train
6)  Passenger leaving the train but then realising she's left her rucksack on the seat, so rushes back in to get it
7)  Drunk passenger asleep
8 )  Passenger left on board as empty train departs panics and pulls the emergency chord
9)  General delays meaning that there's a big backlog of trains to deal with and platforms packed with passengers

Now, not all those are going to happen on every train, but I bet most of them will happen at least once a day, and perhaps once an hour in some cases.  Like I say, even if you get a bit ruthless and despatch them to the reversing sidings, the operation will still have to be blimmin' slick!

[ChrisB]

Bear in mind we're only discussing 24tph *in the peaks*....so catch-up time is available outside these 2x3 hours - might even be only 2x2.5 hours.

Those on a Padd terminator will know it's terminating there - the CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) will be very clear. Japan seems to cope, why can't we?

[IndustryInsider]

Bear in mind we're only discussing 24tph *in the peaks*....so catch-up time is available outside these 2x3 hours - might even be only 2x2.5 hours.

Indeed, though it's still a pretty intensive service off-peak.

Those on a Padd terminator will know it's terminating there - the CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) will be very clear.

Clear enough for a load of foreign tourists engrossed in their guide maps?  I've seen some quite shocking misinterpretations/disregard of very clear CIS messages in my time...

Japan seems to cope, why can't we?

Does anywhere in Japan have a similar mix of terminating trains and through trains using one platform at frequencies of 24tph?

I hope my concerns will be unfounded of course - let's wait and see.

[paul7575]

It is documented somewhere in the reams of Crossrail bumph online that passengers who don't get off will just be over-carried to Westbourne Park, it is why Westbourne Park will have full length narrow platforms.

There is no equivalent problem at the eastern end, e.g. at Liverpool St, as ChrisB asks a few posts ago, as the whole service runs through (50/50) to Shenfield or Abbey Wood.

Paul