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Author Topic: UK electricity generation needs and methods.  (Read 8321 times)
Btline
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« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2012, 13:31:59 »

I agree with a lot of what is said here. That windfarm proposal off the Bristol channel is horrendous! I staying in a hotel in Broadstairs, Kent recently and I was shocked when night fell as it looked as if there was a TOWN just off the coast (when in reality it should be dark). At first I thought it must be the Netherlands. But it was a giant windfarm plonked there despite the locals not wanting their beautiful views lost.

But my opinion stays the same. Nuclear for most of our power - topped up by some HEP and tidal.
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anthony215
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« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2012, 15:34:23 »

I have been reading through this thread and have decided to air my own views.

I certainly have some agreement with those arguing against wind power although I agree with having some wind farms I also agree we should be doing more to promote otehr methods of generating power i.e Nuclear.

I  am  also in favour of building the Severn Barage (especially since it is a big infrastructure project that would create jobs when it is being built , something the country could do with)
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phile
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« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2012, 20:53:26 »

There is much debate on this and much of it has turned into a big con.    When the earth was created, coal was under the surface as a means of lighting fires and as a result the smoke had to escape into the atmosphere.     People think that too much carbon is the cause of global warming and their brainwashing powers have convinced many people.   So man  (or person in case i am criticised for being unpolitically correct) is trying to interfere with a natural process over which they have no control.    If an iceberg is going to melt or the level of the sea rises nobody is going to prevent, not even King Canute.    When steam locos, furnaces and factory chimneys belched out smoke we did not get the weather patterns we do now and we could rely on fine weather summers, unlike now as a result of people trying to interfere with what was intended to happen in the beginningand over which man has no control however we are "conned". 
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ellendune
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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2012, 22:11:23 »

There is much debate on this and much of it has turned into a big con.    When the earth was created, coal was under the surface as a means of lighting fires and as a result the smoke had to escape into the atmosphere.     People think that too much carbon is the cause of global warming and their brainwashing powers have convinced many people.   So man  (or person in case i am criticised for being unpolitically correct) is trying to interfere with a natural process over which they have no control.    If an iceberg is going to melt or the level of the sea rises nobody is going to prevent, not even King Canute.    When steam locos, furnaces and factory chimneys belched out smoke we did not get the weather patterns we do now and we could rely on fine weather summers, unlike now as a result of people trying to interfere with what was intended to happen in the beginningand over which man has no control however we are "conned". 

Recent article shows the compelling evidence of man-made climate change http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/jul/29/climate-change-sceptics-change-mind.  However given what you said perhaps you do not dispute this. 

If you disput this perhaps you do not care.  We could carry on regardless, but this is likely to make large parts of our planet uninhabitable and disrupt global food supplies.  Probably leading to mass starvation in some places.  If you think that is OK because it will be OK here, (is it all right for mass starvation in other countries?) don't be so sure. Even without global warming we have not been self sufficient in food since the 1850's we do not know what the local effects might be and we may not be rish enough to outbid other countries such as China.   
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phile
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« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2012, 22:16:14 »

Yes. I have read the reports but I still think that it is beyond the power of man to change it even by trying to reduce the carbon footprint.    Is there any evidence that it is actually working.
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Btline
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« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2012, 23:41:57 »

I'm not sure what you're getting at. If you're trying to suggest that man (which is a fine word to use, as in "mankind") is not responsible then take a look at a graph of temps. See the kink after the industrial revolution.

If you're trying to suggest that there is nothing we can now do about it, you're probably right. If I waved a magic wand and stopped all emissions today, it would take another 200 years for the CO2 levels to stop rising. In reality, we have China opening coal fired stations every week. We must prepare instead.

And please, it's not a carbon increase, it is carbon dioxide increase. The amount of carbon is staying pretty constant!
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JayMac
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« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2012, 00:21:03 »

The amount of carbon is staying pretty constant!

Well done Btline. A scientific fact.  Tongue Wink Grin
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TerminalJunkie
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« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2012, 06:13:39 »

When the earth was created, coal was under the surface as a means of lighting fires

I suspect that I've uncovered your basic problem, which is that you haven't got a clue what you're on about.
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phile
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« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2012, 16:04:31 »

Everybody can have an opinion and put forward theories.   Whether you agree or disagree it is courtesy to respect opinions however you feel.    I'm not saying I'm correct but there can be countless possibilities.
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Btline
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« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2012, 17:14:35 »

Everybody can have an opinion and put forward theories.   Whether you agree or disagree it is courtesy to respect opinions however you feel.    I'm not saying I'm correct but there can be countless possibilities.

But what you wrote is factually wrong.

Coal was created over millions of years from rotting organic material on sea beds and ancient forests (hence being a carbon source). It was not "put" underground by anyone! Plus if you're going to be accurate, the Earth was not "created", it was formed from gathering dust. I'm confused about what you're trying to say...

You're right that there are countless possibilities within the range of this though.
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phile
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« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2012, 17:41:50 »

Sorry.  My knowledge on the history of coal was geologically flawed.  I admit to being wrong.   It was still formed however.   I will rest my case and you will hear no more from me on the subject.
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Bristolboy
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« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2012, 16:02:50 »

I'm not sure what you're getting at. If you're trying to suggest that man (which is a fine word to use, as in "mankind") is not responsible then take a look at a graph of temps. See the kink after the industrial revolution.

If you're trying to suggest that there is nothing we can now do about it, you're probably right. If I waved a magic wand and stopped all emissions today, it would take another 200 years for the CO2 levels to stop rising. In reality, we have China opening coal fired stations every week. We must prepare instead.

And please, it's not a carbon increase, it is carbon dioxide increase. The amount of carbon is staying pretty constant!

Agree with all you say here. however, China opening a coal power station every week was true for about a quarter of a year before the economic crash. since then Chinese coal plants are being built at a much lower rate-in fact wind, solar, hydro, gas and nuclear are all increasing at a faster rate than coal in China.
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TonyK
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« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2012, 17:27:13 »

I don't think wind turbines are as useless as some make out. However, I am frustrated that wind is the only renewable the government have done much pushing for. The baseload power generation, in my opinion, should be made up of mostly completly submurged tidal stream turbines (note: not barrages) and nuclear power stations, but I think wind turbines probably do have a place in the generation mix (though something needs to be done about pylons, which are much more of an eyesore than most modern wind turbines).

Tidal power, although much more reliable that wind, isn't constant, so probably wouldn't be any use as baseload. It is, however, suddenly very promising. The latest government scheme for renewables has not just cut wind's subsidy by 10%, but has also added incentives for wave power to be used, by upping the value of the ROC (Rail Operating Centre - a centralised location for railway signalling and train control operations for a specific route or region) (renewable obligation certificates) per unit of power. Expect much to happen, especially off northern Scotland. These will be completely underwater, and may very well look like wind turbines. BAE Systems have done considerable work already. The advantage over wind is the density of water against air - there is a lot more energy in the same sized place.

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I believe I have read of a proposal for a fossil-fuel-powered (diesel perhaps) generation station which I think was supposed to start up and shut-down almost instantly as back up for wind farms. If true, that sort of thing would mean we would only need to burn fossil fuels when it isn't windy, rather than having to keep coal-fired stations running even when it is windy to prvide power when it isn't. Pumped-storage hydro-power might also be good company for wind generation (when you have more wind than you need pump water up, when there isn't enough wind let the water flow).

Pumped storage, such as Dinorweg electric mountain, was conceived as good company for nuclear power stations. They work best when they are on full power permanently. At night, the chain of nuclear stations proposed would need something to use their excess power on. Charging up the nation's night storage heaters and milk floats took only some of the power, so Dinorweg was born. It uses off-peak energy to pump the water uphill, so there is loss of energy. But it can turn the dial from zero to 1.8MW in less than half a minute, and sustain that for up to six hours. Of course, not all the nuclear stations were built, so a second plant tentatively planned for Exmoor never saw the light of day. Exmoor, BTW (by the way), did have pumped storage, from 1899 until the night of the flood in 1952 - see here for more.

The National Grid already relies on a number of diesel-powered generators to provide that last little bit of electricity when the conventional stuff doesn't quite add up. These tend to be owned by farmers, and make a nice little income for them, even if they are not often used. Pumped storage is a good idea in principle, but would cost sums that may make nuclear look cheap. Dinorweg cost ^425m at 1974 prices, and took 10 years to build. Someone in Scotland suggested this as a storage for wind power, and was shot down in flames by angry kilt-wearers, who said it would ruin what little of Scotland is left unspoiled by wind turbines.

Promising for the future is Thorium. It offers most of the benefits of traditional nuclear, with hardly any of the disadvantages. There are thousands of years of supply. It consumes 98% of input fuel, as opposed to 5% for uranium, leaving a few gallons of waste instead of a few truckloads. India is ahead of the field on this possible fuel, and hopes to start its first Thorium reactor later this year. Even Friends of the Earth are moving towards support. Bit ironic that a country we are still giving aid to could be the one to leave us behind.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 18:10:28 by Four Track, Now! » Logged

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