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Author Topic: Petition for double track on Cotswold line...  (Read 25459 times)
smokey
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« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2008, 18:53:16 »

Quote from: smokey
Contrary to popular belief, Water is an INSULATOR, if it conducted electricity then every Power line would blow up every time it rained.

However Sea Water CONDUCTS electricity and that will cause real sparks every time the Sea was stormy at Dawlish.

What a complete load of old cobblers.

Sea water may be slightly more conductive than pure water, but then the atmosphere isn't a perfect insulator either. Electricity will flow down whatever route it finds easiest, and in the case of OHLE that's always going to be along the wires.

So Why did sea water stop the Virgin Vovagers?

Because it shorted out the Load Bank Resistors on the roof!
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Btline
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« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2008, 19:13:59 »

Look, OHE (Over-Head Electrification) is not going to happen:

*It cannot be extended to South Wales due to Severn Tunnel- that's 2tph which will remain as HSTs (High Speed Train).
*It cannot be extended past Exeter, due to the sea wall, that's 1tph that will remain as an HST.
*I can't see them electrifying up to Oxford, the Cherwell Valley, Cotwolds and Malverns; thats 2tph that will remain as Turbos/HSTs.
*Will they electrify the Greengord Branch- probably not! That's 2tph out! And the Night Riviera.
*What about down to Bakinstoke? Nope- another few services gone!
*They would not electrify to Newquay, so that would have to be an HST (if OHE got to Cornwall, which it wouldn't anyway).
*What about all those sidings and depots and freight terminals? Nah- let's leave them out! That's all freight still diesel!

NB: Please note the ECML (East Coast Main Line) scheme- hardly any branches/extensions/sidings were electrified. That is why many trains (including those to Skipton!) are HSTs. Luckily, the majority of trains would be electric anyway, so they went ahead- while cutting some through journeys! The same would happen to the GWML (Great Western Main Line). Only the bare minimum would be done, so either there would be a lot of HSTs, or through journeys (eg past Exeter) would be axed!

So, they say- "Oh..... it looks like that too many trains will still be diesel- not worth it!"

We also now have more powerful diesels that can accelerate as fast as electric trains (e.g. the Voyagers- even though I hate them!).

It would also cost billions! I'll give you two words: London Olympics!

Therefore, it is not going to happen. I wish it did though! It would be excellent, and give the people (eg on the Cotswold line) the service they deserve. Brunel's excellent railway could be exploited to its full potential with 140mph running on some stretches!
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Btline
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« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2008, 19:31:09 »

Here's how I see it, Btline.

To take the rather obvious political implications of proposing the closure of stations within David Cameron's constituency out of the equation is, in my view, the wrong approach. You disagree, and that is your right.

You feel that it is the correct approach to propose closing some of the "Oxfordshire Halts." I disagree, and that is my right.

I think that anyone reading this thread can see that both sides of the argument have been thoroughly aired. I could continue to counter your points (and indeed would) but we would end up going round in circles. Wearing my Global Moderator hat, I am going to accept eightf48544 recommendation and move the debate on.

I believe he has a request for you :

Therefore, rather than trying to second guess any scheme that Network might come up with I suggest that the petiton organisers put forward proposed headways for services on the line.

Its your petition, not mine.

OK.

1. Can you at least acknowledge that my ideas have some logic to it- remember the comment on the Finstock shelter. I know that you are against any closures- I respect that. I just came up with an idea, where I thought a closure or two would not be that bad.

I feel that some people are disappointed with some of my comments. I am not some mad axe man wishing to deprive the Cotswold villages with a rail service, just looking at different options.

2 Once again- The petition is to do with the redoubling, and the redoubling only. Yes, my description does include the "halts", or words to the effect. However, these are just words to show the reader (and the PM) what possibilities are out there.

When I first answered comments about it, I stated that "the village halts would be saved etc." I stand by this comment, and my suggestions (if they resulted in the situation I describe) does to a certain extent.

Yes, I have now changed to: Axe a couple of halts. However, I have given a reasonable justification and reasons why it could be beneficial to people, not annoying.

3 Yeah, ok, can we keep politics out of it now, I do not wish to make any more comments about this. My last comment was sort of trying to indicate this....

4 As I said before, apart from the doubling, nothing else (such as train paths) involves me. It is separate. Besides, I have already indicated a possible calling pattern which improves the halts service!!!!!


Right, to move on (do reply though)

Would others perhaps start thinking about timings (of my calling patterns)?

Thanks again,

Btline
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Lee
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« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2008, 19:59:02 »

1. Can you at least acknowledge that my ideas have some logic to it- remember the comment on the Finstock shelter. I know that you are against any closures- I respect that. I just came up with an idea, where I thought a closure or two would not be that bad.

I feel that some people are disappointed with some of my comments. I am not some mad axe man wishing to deprive the Cotswold villages with a rail service, just looking at different options.

I believe that your ideas are well-argued, even if I disagree with them. They are up on the forum for all to see, and to make their own judgement.

2 Once again- The petition is to do with the redoubling, and the redoubling only. Yes, my description does include the "halts", or words to the effect. However, these are just words to show the reader (and the PM) what possibilities are out there.

When I first answered comments about it, I stated that "the village halts would be saved etc." I stand by this comment, and my suggestions (if they resulted in the situation I describe) does to a certain extent.

Yes, I have now changed to: Axe a couple of halts. However, I have given a reasonable justification and reasons why it could be beneficial to people, not annoying.

Noted, and again is up on the forum for all to see, and to make their own judgement.

3 Yeah, ok, can we keep politics out of it now, I do not wish to make any more comments about this. My last comment was sort of trying to indicate this....

If forum members are to be given the opportunity to accept that your ideas have some logic to them, then they must be given the same opportunity regarding mine. Politics is a key factor in many railway proposals (just ask Bristol campaigners.)

Agreeing to disagree is probably the way forward here.

4 As I said before, apart from the doubling, nothing else (such as train paths) involves me. It is separate. Besides, I have already indicated a possible calling pattern which improves the halts service!!!!!

I know, and have commented :

I actually think there is some merit in your/btlines overall suggestion, but the stopper could be modified so that 2 out of Combe, Finstock, Ascott and Shipton are called at in one hour, and the other 2 stations called at in the next, a "skip-stop" pattern, if you like.

Right, to move on

Agreed, and stated in my last post.

I would just like to add that I respect your views, but just dont agree with some of them.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 20:22:09 by Lee Fletcher » Logged

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Btline
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« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2008, 20:31:24 »

Right. I won't bother replying.

No hard feelings. I am sorry! I do feel that I have hit a nerve so I will stop.

Moving on:

About the timings:

It seems like xx51 is the general path at the mo. So how about:

*Semi-fast departures from London every hour from 0551 to 2251. Calling at Reading, Oxford, Chalbury, Kingham, Morton, Evesham, Worcester Shrub Hill and Worceser Foregate Street. Extensions to Malvern Link, Great Malvern, Cowall, Ledbury and Hereford on the 1251 (Cathedrals Express) and on the 1851.

From Worcester every hour from 0510 to 2350. Same calls. Extensions from Hereford, Ledbury, Great Malvern and Malvern Link on the 1710 (Cathedrals Express) and 2350 Worceser departures.

All services operated by HSTs (High Speed Train).

*Local departures from Oxford every hour from 0619 to 2219. Calling at Hanborough, Charlbury, Kingham, Morton, Honeybourne, Evesham, Pershore and Worcester Shrub Hill. Extensions from Didcot, Reading, Slough and London on the 0819 and 1919 Oxford Departures. Calls at "halts" on some services spread through out the day as requests, including a evening peak from Oxford.

From Worcester Shrub Hill every hour from 0540 to 1940. Same stops. Extensions to Didcot Reading, Slough and London on the 0640 and 1540 Worcester Departures. Halts as before.

All services operated by Thames Turbos (on the assumption that they accelerate better, are shorter, cope with the reduced loadings, and the fact that there are not enough HSTs).

I know this won't be perfect. It is a start. Please comment.
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Lee
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« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2008, 20:35:55 »

Right. I won't bother replying.

No hard feelings. I am sorry! I do feel that I have hit a nerve so I will stop.

No hard feelings here either. Nerves intact, and look forward to reading more of your contributions, which, just as with other forum members, are genuinely valued.
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Btline
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« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2008, 20:45:31 »

Thanks!  Wink

What about the timings? I know I have not accounted for the possible timing decreases (less waiting around at Morton for example!).

Does it work?
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willc
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« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2008, 23:57:39 »

Right, having put on some soothing music and taken a deep breath, may I bring a little local knowledge to bear on this. Apologies in advance if I go on a bit.

1. The announcement from Network Rail on what options it favours for more double track is imminent. In my professional capacity (journalist), I inquired about this last week and was told they were confident it would be in February.

2. Why are there so many stations? The Old Worse and Worse (Oxford Worcester and Wolverhampton for the uninitiated, the company that built the line in the 1850s) did not open all the stations. Combe, Finstock and Wyre Halt (in the Vale of Evesham, closed in the 1960s) were opened by the GWR (Great Western Railway) in the 1930s.
With the exception of Evesham, there isn't anywhere of any great size between Oxford and Worcester, so the OWW (Oxford Worcester and Wolverhampton) and the GWR aimed to serve as many of the small towns and villages as they could. That so many survived (or later reopened in the case of Honeybourne) is down to the fact that BR (British Rail(ways))'s closure proposals in the early 1970s were consistently rejected by the Ministry of Transport, probably because many journeys the line makes possible take longer by road and many of those roads were and still are unsuitable for buses.
At one point I think they tried to close every intermediate station except Evesham and Moreton-in-Marsh. Astonishing when you look at traffic levels today at Charlbury (see near start of this thread), for example, but there it is. Also bear in mind that the (almost) all trains through to and from London service is a relatively recent development, from 1993. Most trains from the end of steam until then were two or three car DMUs (Diesel Multiple Unit) operating all-stations stoppers (plus halts in the peak), with the pairs of Hereford peak trains and the odd midday London-Malvern/Worcester as the only express-type services. No-one really got too exercised about express v all-stations arguments, as most of the day there was only the stopper and you had to change at Oxford.

3. Halts. Should they stay or go? Some of what has been said betrays a lack of knowledge of local geography. Combe and Finstock may look close on a map, but no-one would travel from one place to the other to get a train. The roads are awful and the River Evenlode is in the way. The alternatives are Charlbury for Finstock passengers and Hanborough for Combe. Finstock village and the Wychwood villages are linked much of the day with Charlbury station by a taxibus that connects with the trains. As for car parking at Combe and Finstock, come off it. The first is perched on an embankment, the other in a cutting at the bottom of a valley, both sites which cost the GWR nothing to build on. Back in December, I wrote the following on the halts. Nothing has happened to change my mind. There is a loyal, but small peak trade and that's it.

Quote
As for custom at these stations, Combe and Finstock are both about a mile from the villages and Finstock is at the bottom of a steepish hill as well, so not great scope for extra numbers, I'd say, even with more trains... Ascott's problem is that while it is convenient for the village itself, it is so close to Shipton it would be hard to justify lots of trains calling at both points, so maybe an extra peak stop or two here. I don't think people here would be too aggrieved if they only had a short drive to Shipton for more frequent services the rest of the day.

4. Suggested semi-fast/stopping trains service. Sorry, but outside the peaks, there just isn't the traffic on offer to justify anything like this level of service.

It is a longstanding goal of the CLPG» (Cotswold Line Promotion Group - about) (and every major council along the line from Oxford to Hereford, through the Cotswold and Malverns Transport Partnership) to get a regular hourly interval off-peak service to and from London, for the precise reason that this is a realistic, sustainable frequency. In the peaks the consensus is that there should be a 30-minute interval in the direction of the main flows, towards Oxford and London in the morning and in the other direction late afternoon and early evening. And a two-car Turbo (to operate the morning halts train into Oxford) is plenty of capacity for the last train of the day from London and Oxford to Worcester at the moment.

We also seem to be returning to the realms of penalising Hanborough, Honeybourne and Pershore. You seem to be suggesting that Turbos and changing at Oxford off-peak are fine for them - and presumably Chipping Campden, because more double track being laid would put this reopening proposal back on the agenda at Gloucestershire County Council. As I have said before, the trains stop at these places (and with increasing frequency in recent years) because people use them, and because they ease pressure elsewhere - eg at Evesham, where car park expansion is impossible, as all the adjacent former railway land has been sold off, never mind negotiating the town's dodgy road system. These three are Parkway stations for wider areas, as much as serving the places they are named after.

It may not be gee-whizz and exciting, but what I would like to see off-peak is a boring, reliable Swiss-style regular interval service, every hour, calling at Hanborough, Charlbury, Kingham, Moreton-in-Marsh, Evesham and Pershore. And maybe a two-hourly interval at Shipton and see how traffic develops and something similar at Chipping Campden if that is reopened, with some Honeybourne stops dropped to keep timings fairly consistent.

In the peak, something similar to today's service levels would make sense (with the odd train skipping Honeybourne or Hanborough, plus another London-bound train calling at Shipton), though reshuffled to get as near to a regular 30-minute interval between trains as possible. The halts train inevitably throws a spanner in the works, but that can't be helped and a two-car Turbo is still pretty fleet of foot, happily thrashing along Kingham-Moreton at 90mph most of the way. Double track would also allow a welcome extra service or two into Worcester in the morning peak from the Vale of Evesham stations.

In the morning an extra southbound service that reaches Oxford at about 9.30 (London 10.30) would be popular, while in the afternoon an extra train to even out the gaps between the 16.49, 17.31 and 18.16 from Oxford would be welcome, along with the 17.51 ex-London going back to leaving Oxford at 18.45-ish, giving a 30-minute interval between the two Hereford trains.

After all that we have endured on the Cotswold Line in the past few years in terms of unreliability, hours of disruption triggered by one late-running train and all the rest, what this line and its passengers need is a period of stability and reliability, where people know that the train will turn up at the same time every hour, all day, every day, or half-hourly in the peaks.

If there is more double track, and some boring reliablity can be achieved and passenger numbers stabilise and start to grow again, by all means look at running more trains, but let's get the basics right first.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2008, 00:21:51 by willc » Logged
Lee
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« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2008, 07:10:53 »

I understand where you are coming from, willc. I am aware of the "halts" taxibus services, but part of what CANBER (Campaign Against the New Beeching Report) does is to suggest options as to how services to such stations could be improved, which is why I suggested the (slight) alteration to btlines (and other forum members) service pattern that I did.

Although I feel that there may be scope for an experimental daytime "halts" train service, if the locals said that they wanted something different from these suggestions then their view would obviously have to be respected.

Btline and I have had a behind the scenes chat, and both would like this topic locked if possible, as we feel that we have reached a "natural conclusion." Personally, I feel that the issues have been thoroughly aired, and willc's "local knowledge" post is a good way to end.

As I have posted extensively, perhaps one of the other moderators/admin could do this?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2008, 07:58:23 by Lee Fletcher » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2008, 08:47:38 »

This is getting a bit heated ... several reports in my inbox and it seems at a quick glance the subjects have been well aired.   I'm away - so locking the topic for now - initially as a precautionary measure until I can review.
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