Problems with Revenue Protection Staff over a Child Ticket

[whole diary]

[thetrout]

I have a rather interesting query on what would be best practice to do, should I be faced with this situation again.

I recently took my sister to London (Again!) and the tickets we purchased were 1x First Class Anytime Adult Travelcard with Disabled Adult Railcard Discount and 1x First Class Anytime Child Travelcard.

Before anyone jumps on the bandwagon of "thetrout was pulling a fast one" my sister is 15!

Anyway, we passed through London Bridge Station and our tickets didn't seem to want to work with the barriers. So we went to the gateline staff of which 2 of them were RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context))'s. My sister showed them her ticket first and they didn't believe she was 15 and asked her date of birth. (I know this sounds ridiculous, but she couldn't remember the year) and she started rattling it off and then looked at me for some support because she couldn't remember. Now under normal circumstances, it would be perfectly reasonable for a child (my sister also has learning disabilities) to look to a family member/friend for reassurance that it was right.  BIG MISTAKE. Unfortunately, I wasn't sure of her date of birth either (I can't even remember my own at times and certainly cannot when under fire!)

So one of the RPI's turned to me and said: "And how old are you then sir?" Which sounds politeish, but when the guy said it really wasn't I replied politely: "My age is irrelevant" RPI: "Well if you don't tell me your age how do I know your using a child ticket that is valid?"

By this point I would like to say that nobody had checked my ticket yet...

So I replied: "There's an age restriction on adult tickets now??" In a rather smug tone which I was aware could've very quickly backfired on me but it didn't. I passed him my ticket and the guy just looked at it in slight disgust and gave it back. He then went on to demand ID from my sister.

Now forgive me if I am wrong. But what need does a 15 Year Old have to carry ID? For my sister there is none whatsoever as she doesn't use public transport (Well maybe once a month at most), Doesn't buy age restricted products (Of which at her current age are predominantly limited to Video Games and Films) and isn't even old enough for a Provisional! To make matters worse, the only form of Photo ID she had was a passport which was stolen earlier this year when she and the mother trout were on holiday abroad, which resulted in all sorts of further issues getting them home! The only other ID she'd have is perhaps a birth certificate. Which isn't necessarily an acceptable form of ID anyway!

I explained to the RPI (Who was slowly testing my patience) that she didn't have any form of Photo ID on her and that her passport was stolen whilst she was on holiday with the folks. I went on to say that if he still believed she was using a ticket fraudulantly bearing in mind I had an Adult Ticket and paid for both of them on the same transaction, that he should issue an Unpaid Fares Notice and that I would arrange for the folks to send in a copy of her birth certificate.

He then changed tactics, made a brief (and perhaps sarcastic) apology and waived us through the barriers...

Interesting situation, but worthwhile knowing what would be a correct way to handle the situation? Also feel free to tell me if I was out of line by being slightly rude. The guy just really, really got right up my nose!

[EBrown]

Now forgive me if I am wrong. But what need does a 15 Year Old have to carry ID? For my sister there is none whatsoever as she doesn't use public transport (Well maybe once a month at most), Doesn't buy age restricted products (Of which at her current age are predominantly limited to Video Games and Films) and isn't even old enough for a Provisional! To make matters worse, the only form of Photo ID she had was a passport which was stolen earlier this year when she and the mother trout were on holiday abroad, which resulted in all sorts of further issues getting them home! The only other ID she'd have is perhaps a birth certificate. Which isn't necessarily an acceptable form of ID anyway!

Interesting situation, but worthwhile knowing what would be a correct way to handle the situation? Also feel free to tell me if I was out of line by being slightly rude. The guy just really, really got right up my nose!

As a general point - you are only obliged to give your name and address. You don't have to give your date of birth or show any ID (not even to prove your name or address). You also don't have to sign witness statement reports to "confirm their accuracy".

At the end of the day, you should try and avoid being rude (staff generally don't appreciate it and certainly poor staff then act worse towards you). Personally, I would politely ask the RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) to let you through, if he has 'objections' then you should point out that she has dyslexia/dysgraphia; both of which affect your working memory. You shouldn't have a problem at this point, if you do, the RPI can only really complete a TIR^▸ (Travel Irregularity Report) or MG11^▸ (Form to take a statement for use in court).

Should the RPI have wanted to complete a Witness Statement (MG11-T) then they would require an appropriate adult to witness the interview, that could be you; however having identified you are disabled they should check your suitability first (by oral questioning - "Do you understand the implications of this..." is the SE standard question).

[Andrew1939 from West Oxon]

The Revenue Protection staff are quite correct to question the age of someone who who looks to be older than the child ticket age permitted. Many 17 & 18 year olds try this on and if they do not get checked then they will carry on just buying a child ticket. It is however the manner in which the RP staff carry out their checks. Some RP staff (fortunately only a minority) treat any person who does not have a normal ticket as though they are a criminal. From my local station (Hanborough) many people travel to London and Reading but have been unable to buy a ticket at the station either because the queue is too long at the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) or the dam thing is not working properly. It is then impossible to buy a ticket from the conductor on the 7 or 8 minute journey to Oxford and often the train is driver only operated from Oxford onwards. I regularly receive comments about the attitude of some staff at the barriers at Reading and Oxford who do not believe it has not been possible to buy a ticket either before boarding the train or on the train. Fortunately the barrier staff at Oxford are fully aware of this situation.
Incidentally, I have recently been advised that the CL station manager (or her deputy) now try to be at Hanborough as often as possible at peak morning hours to be able to free up the regular ticket issuing jams that so often put the single TVM out of action.

[EBrown]

The Revenue Protection staff are quite correct to question the age of someone who who looks to be older than the child ticket age permitted. Many 17 & 18 year olds try this on and if they do not get checked then they will carry on just buying a child ticket.

Indeed, there is nothing wrong with questioning someone's age. The "When are you 18?" works well, anyone who you reasonably suspect is older, but if you cannot disprove their age:

• Take their name and address
• Advise them to go to any staffed station with proof of age and a photograph to get a photo card
• Advise them to get a 16-25 if they are older than 15
• Advise them of the law with regarding the offence, advise them of the consequences of their actions
• Thank them for their time and wish them a good onward journey.