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Author Topic: Future sources of energy - ongoing discussion (merged topic)  (Read 6524 times)
rich0099
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« on: August 20, 2012, 14:38:27 »

As an SVB resident and train commuter - I can assure you the bus service isn't up to much, with only a single bus serving Bristol - one in the morning and one in the evening. If the government want people out of cars - there needs to be a viable alternative. Although occasionally creaky - the train service is brilliant - and as I'm on there every day, I can tell you that passenger numbers are growing, with workers from all the distribution centres using it. Common sense would say there needs to be a platform at the Portway Park & Ride.

Furthermore, let us not forget the expansion (albeit slow) that is taking place in and around the Severnside/Avonmouth area. The 1957 'Carte Blanche' planning permission to build industrial units on the thousands of acres of old ICI land is still extant.

SITA has gained planning permission to build an "Energy Recovery Centre" next to the Seabank Powerstation. The planning application, refers to using rail to move waste into the site (along side the usual HGV movement) - I'm slightly sceptical of this... but it would be nice to see less HGV's on the road.

http://www.sita.co.uk/news-and-views/press-releases/secretary-of-state-gives-approval-for-sita-uk2019s

Along with the Deep Sea Port, another indication of expansion in this area is the current campaign to install a new junction on the M49 as the A403 is struggling to cope. I understand funding is becoming a reality - and this easy access will only encourage new business.

Lastly, I notice that the 'Severn Barrage' has reared it's ugly head again... Perhaps if it's built, the "Blue Lagoon" may once more become famous with tourists, with the estuary giving the potential for watersports and sailing!  Wink
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TonyK
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« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2012, 22:05:34 »

Interesting news about the energy recovery place. SITA no longer empty bins in Bristol, though. Could that affect this plan? As for moving waste by rail, that could mean a much shorter journey for the Avon Binliner.

I'm not sure about the Severn Barrage. It would be a very costly mistake if it does cause problems, but we need the power.
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JayMac
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« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2012, 23:13:05 »

that could mean a much shorter journey for the Avon Binliner.

Does the Avon Binliner even run any more? I thought it's last run was April last year.
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TonyK
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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2012, 17:13:06 »

If it doesn't run, then there's a whole load of containers doing nothing at Days Road.
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« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2012, 22:25:28 »

I'm just going by freight timetable gen on other forums that said that Calvert now only has two 'binliners':

From Northolt - runs three days a week, operated by DB» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) Schenker, using either a 66 or a 59/2

From Cricklewood - runs daily (Mon-Fri), operated by Freightliner, using a 66/5

I believe the opening of the Mechanical Biological Treatment plant at Avonmouth in 2011 was the reason the 'binliner' trains to Calvert landfill are no longer needed.
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« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2012, 22:32:40 »

The siding at Days Road is now used by Freightliner to store aggregate wagons when they are not needed in traffic.

Often they come from Crawley and Dagenham.
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TonyK
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2012, 16:54:01 »

The SITA application is for another waste facility. The Mechanical and Biological Treatment centre, already running, is operated by New Earth Solutions, and is shortly to be joined by a power station with a 13MW output. So two jobs get done - our old rubbish gets burned (pyrolysed, actually), and electricity gets generated. It's a fascinating bit of engineering, using a process that was developed in Bristol, which diverts 95% of the waste coming in away from landfill.
SITA's application is for a separate facility to do much the same thing with somebody else's rubbish. There is still a rail line into the site, so they could in theory bring rubbish in from other areas.
Unlike the useless wind turbines, these facilities deliver electricity in a constant stream. I can see these being built all around the country if it goes well in Avonmouth, which seems likely. Railway trains full of rubbish will be a commoon sight again, bringing in the raw material, and appeals will be made for us to generate more rubbish. There is already talk of digging up landfill sites.
There's a bit of promo video here
All of which tends to show the prospect of more freight around the railway in the area, as well as (hopefully) the Greater Bristol Metro. I look forward to the day the station at Portishead opens here, currently occupied by a muriel:
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ellendune
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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2012, 20:18:39 »

SITA's application is for a separate facility to do much the same thing with somebody else's rubbish. There is still a rail line into the site, so they could in theory bring rubbish in from other areas.
Unlike the useless wind turbines, these facilities deliver electricity in a constant stream. I can see these being built all around the country if it goes well in Avonmouth, which seems likely. Railway trains full of rubbish will be a commoon sight again, bringing in the raw material, and appeals will be made for us to generate more rubbish. There is already talk of digging up landfill sites.

These facilities are a very good idea however a few misapprehensions.

  • Digging up landfills won't produce energy in facilities such as this.  This is to recover the materials that are now running low and getting extremely expensive such as metals.
  • For the same reason throwing more stuff away isn't the answer as we still need to recycle the materials.  We could burn waste plastics but with oil supplies becomeing more and more expensive that make not be the best use of the resource either
  • Windpower is not as useless as its critics make out.  A small country like Denmark produces over 20% of its electricity from windpower, Portugal 19%, 16% in Spain and 14% in Ireland yet critics here allege it would be impossible for the UK (United Kingdom) to do more than 12% because of it is intermittent. Yet we still only produce a fraction of this because of the nimbys. We need a mix of energy sources
  • Unless we start producing more power from some source soon the light will start going out sooner than we think.  That probably means as much wind, wave tidal, energy from waste and even nuclear power as we can build.
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TonyK
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« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2012, 23:19:40 »


    • Digging up landfills won't produce energy in facilities such as this.  This is to recover the materials that are now running low and getting extremely expensive such as metals.

    Correct, I agree now I've read up

    Quote
    • For the same reason throwing more stuff away isn't the answer as we still need to recycle the materials.  We could burn waste plastics but with oil supplies becomeing more and more expensive that make not be the best use of the resource either

    It may happen, but as plastics require oil and energy, best use is recycling.

    Quote
    • Windpower is not as useless as its critics make out.  A small country like Denmark produces over 20% of its electricity from windpower, Portugal 19%, 16% in Spain and 14% in Ireland yet critics here allege it would be impossible for the UK (United Kingdom) to do more than 12% because of it is intermittent. Yet we still only produce a fraction of this because of the nimbys. We need a mix of energy sources

    Hmm. Denmark has the highest energy prices in Europe by a large margin. It gives much of its output free to its neighbours when it can't use it all, but has to buy it back when the wind drops. It is heavily dependent on imported electricity, and has not been able to decommission a single conventional power station. All that whilst producing only 20% of its electricity from wind. Imagine how bad it would be if it tried to generate all of its power from wind.

    A study of Dutch wind power found that the actual saving in emissions is as low as 4% of the claimed figures, and that once more than 20% of power is generated by wind, the saving becomes negative.

    The Adam Smith Institute, not known for uninformed expostulation, published a report "Renewable Energy: Vision or mirage?", which found it was mirage.

    As for NIMBYs, I am a NIABY - Not In Anyone's Back Yard. Talk to anybody who lives within a mile of the hated Fullabrook subsidy farm in North Devon, as I have, and you will hate them with a passion, as I do. (Not the people, but the turbines, I add to avoid confusion!)

    The turbines often use Neodymium, as much as two tonnes of a Neodymium-based alloy in direct drive turbines. The production of this, mainly behind the closed doors of countries with lower regard for environmental standards and the health of its citizens (OK, China) is one of the great environmental scandals of all time, at least according to the Daily Mail, which I know is hardly a paragon of balanced reportage. Read it anyway. So we don't remove pollution, but export it somewhere convenient.

    I used to think vaguely that wind turbines were a wonderful idea, and would save us all. Later, I researched what I could, and found that they are actually ineffective, expensive, polluting, ugly, and likely to ruin us all. I have helped two people recover form heroin addiction. Helping greenies get off their awful addiction to wind turbines is much harder.

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    • Unless we start producing more power from some source soon the light will start going out sooner than we think.  That probably means as much wind, wave tidal, energy from waste and even nuclear power as we can build.


    Aye, there's the rub. By reference to tide tables, I could work out how much energy could be available at a tidal station on any date in the year 2112. I cannot even guess what wind power will be available in the next 10 minutes. Yet the money that could help develop wave/tidal power is being thrown at wind farms to generate subsidies, along with a small amount of electricity that may or may not prove inconvenient to the national grid at the time it arrives. National Grid pays millions to wind farm operators each year to shut them down when they are producing too much.

    As the Government knew 25 years ago that energy provision would become an enormous problem as the first and second generations of nuclear power stations closed, along with all the coal fired stations, it is awful that nothing was done. At the same time, it is understandable, because nuclear wins or loses lots of votes, nuclear power stations take 20 years to design and build, and governments have a life of 5 years. We need science to inform the debate, rather than emotion.

    Government aspiration is for electricity to be the main power source at the point of consumption, with gas, oil, nuke etc being the means to generate power. In railway terms, especially for projects such as metros, this makes perfect sense. Short rail routes with frequent stops will be much more efficient and much less polluting if they can pick up their power from an overhead line than if they have to carry fuel with them. As an occasional hobby pilot, I know that I always have to balance the payload against the fuel, and that the payload will always include the fuel. In any other form of transport, one may always pull over to the side of the road and call the RAC if it goes wrong, but in aviation you only have too much fuel if you are on fire. HSTs (High Speed Train) can carry 2000 gallons of diesel, something that impacts on their fuel efficiency.
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    ellendune
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    « Reply #9 on: October 17, 2012, 19:20:53 »

    Hmm. Denmark has the highest energy prices in Europe by a large margin. It gives much of its output free to its neighbours when it can't use it all, but has to buy it back when the wind drops. It is heavily dependent on imported electricity, and has not been able to decommission a single conventional power station. All that whilst producing only 20% of its electricity from wind. Imagine how bad it would be if it tried to generate all of its power from wind.

    A study of Dutch wind power found that the actual saving in emissions is as low as 4% of the claimed figures, and that once more than 20% of power is generated by wind, the saving becomes negative.

    I am only a humble engineer not a policy maker but something in this quote does not add up. 

    The turbines often use Neodymium, as much as two tonnes of a Neodymium-based alloy in direct drive turbines. The production of this, mainly behind the closed doors of countries with lower regard for environmental standards and the health of its citizens (OK, China) is one of the great environmental scandals of all time, at least according to the Daily Mail, which I know is hardly a paragon of balanced reportage. Read it anyway. So we don't remove pollution, but export it somewhere convenient.

    Rare earths are needed for many of our modern technologies and so we need to solve this problem. China has been limiting supply and so the US is looking to produce again.  This is a significant resource issue.  Recycling is also needed.

    I used to think vaguely that wind turbines were a wonderful idea, and would save us all. Later, I researched what I could, and found that they are actually ineffective, expensive, polluting, ugly, and likely to ruin us all. I have helped two people recover form heroin addiction. Helping greenies get off their awful addiction to wind turbines is much harder.

    They can only be a part of a solution, but that part can be much more than we currently have. 

    Aye, there's the rub. By reference to tide tables, I could work out how much energy could be available at a tidal station on any date in the year 2112. I cannot even guess what wind power will be available in the next 10 minutes. Yet the money that could help develop wave/tidal power is being thrown at wind farms to generate subsidies, along with a small amount of electricity that may or may not prove inconvenient to the national grid at the time it arrives. National Grid pays millions to wind farm operators each year to shut them down when they are producing too much.

    I think you will find that the Met Office can do alot better than 10 minute wind forecasts.  The key to this is not having all the capacity in the same location and using the grid to balance the load.  That is Denmark's problem being such a small country, however if it worked with its neighbours by cross selling rather than giving it away...

    As the Government knew 25 years ago that energy provision would become an enormous problem as the first and second generations of nuclear power stations closed, along with all the coal fired stations, it is awful that nothing was done. At the same time, it is understandable, because nuclear wins or loses lots of votes, nuclear power stations take 20 years to design and build, and governments have a life of 5 years. We need science to inform the debate, rather than emotion.

    Agree absolutely

    Sorry mods this seems to have wandered off topic
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    TonyK
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    « Reply #10 on: October 17, 2012, 20:16:31 »


    Sorry mods this seems to have wandered off topic

    Agree absolutely!

    It gets me that if anyone proposed digging a hole in the countryside the size of an Olympic swimming pool, filling it with a thousand tonnes of concrete, the sticking a machine the size of a bus on top of a 100m tower, I reckon our local greens would gird their loins, retwist their dreadlocks, buy enough lentils for 6 months, and set up a protest camp. But say it's a wind farm, and they say "Oh, loverly". The tower stays for 25 years, the concrete forever.
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    Chris from Nailsea
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    « Reply #11 on: October 17, 2012, 20:48:09 »

    Sorry mods this seems to have wandered off topic

    Agree absolutely!


    No problem!  I've simply split off these very interesting comments into a separate topic of their own.  Wink
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