Train Cleanliness and Regular Delays (Specific Trains)

[whole diary]

[thetrout]

Before anyone shoots me down. I am aware of the extreme weather conditions that have plagued that South West over the past week or so. (Us IT Techie's do come outside occasionally )

Anyhow. I've noticed that since this has happened, alot of trains have become rather messy and generally look like they need a bit of TLC^▸ (three letter code ). Now I'm aware the Cleaning of the trains is contracted out by FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to a contractor and I have a few queries on this.

On the WSB^» (Westbury - next trains) - BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) corridor, the cleaning is general done "in service". The cleaners board the train and the Guard signs a paper sheet they have. They do the cleaning whilst the train is in service and then alights once completel. Am I to assume the paper sheet is for the contractor to know how much to give FGW a bill for and thus have the proof? Or is it an internal timesheet maybe? Perhaps neither are relevant but I have briefly seen one of the sheets and I am wondering how much resilience is built into it...

Take a look at WSB - BRI Corridor as the example. Regular trains are PMH - CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains) and WEY - BRI (I've left out a number of WSB Terminators and other routes, equally relevant but not for the example i'm going to give). Now take a late running CDF service say by 108 Minutes. Lets assume a late running WEY - BRI service is going to pass through first. Now does the cleaner leave that one alone and take their "Booked" train i.e. CDF to do the cleaning. As that train is 108 Minutes behind, presumably they'll miss their next booked train which won't then get cleaned in the BRI - WSB Corridor if at all before arriving at PMH? If this really is the case then I can understand how some people come up with the "Tick a Box" lifestyle analogy.

If this is the system they adopt it's no wonder why I found 2C38 (23:20 BRI - FRO^» (Frome - next trains)) in such a state last Thursday. (See YouTube links. Yes I know, a sad thing to do but I'd been sat on my backside all day and was bored so thought I'd press the camera button!)

Also I've noticed that specific trains have been running late, whereas others I catch which are normally very punctual have remained to be so and I've not been delayed. Here are 3 examples I've had recently all at BTH^» (Bath Spa - next trains).

22:47 Bath Spa - London Paddington - Most days this week has been over 1 hour late, thus causing confusion when 2C38 shows up beforehand

23:19 (Starts PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)) Bath Spa - Exeter St Davids via Bristol Temple Meads. Most days this week has been upto 40 minutes late. Which incidentally causes 2C38 problems. Also this Friday just gone it was only booked on the Customer Information System to Bristol Temple Meads.

23:38 Bath Spa - Frome. This has only been up to 20 minutes late over the past week. But as the EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) train has also been late it's on a couple of occasions had to wait as 2C38 is the last connection from BTH down for stations to FRO. It is also a valid connection of normally an ample 19 minutes! Friday just gone it was not held despite being nearly , So I bet passengers on that train were delighted with replacement road transport

Videos:

Class 158's in FGW land are two or three carriage units all of which (apart from a couple of odd-balls) have 3 toilets. In these films you get to see the state the train was in. 1 toilet was locked out of use, the next was so bad that not even I was capable of filming it and the third is in the first film... But I think the light is more of an issue. I filmed the centre and rear carriages as the front coach had other passengers and I didn't particularly fancy a conversation.

Part 1: http://youtu.be/jLGiRSq8fzU
Part 2: http://youtu.be/kewLucJ3Nwg

Apologies in advance if you decide i've lost you 3 minutes of your life........

[John R]

Thursday morning the TM^‡(resolve) of my usual train (0746 NLS to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)) apologised for the state of the train, and explained it had not been able to get back to the depot the previous night, (it had run a very slow and late 1915 BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) to Taunton, which was certainly in a bit of a state when I alighted). He said that the train crew had done their best to clean it before departure.

That struck me as a very can-do attitude. No matter that it's not their job, under the circumstances they did their best to provide the best possible service.

It doesn't help that the number of bins on HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s is very limited particularly in standard, so even if people want to discard their rubbish properly, they can't. That and the proliferation of free newspapers are contributory factors  in my opinion.

[Sprog]

All of the mess on your videos is caused by the dirty, animal like people who seem to travel on the west fleet.

As someone who has to work in it, both on the West fleet units and the HSS^▸ (High Speed Services), some of the things you find when you open toilet doors is vile and i cannot understand how any civilised human being could create such 'mess'.

Feceses piled up above the height of the toilet pan, used tampons/sanitary towels, aswell as the 'usual' obvious piles of vomit and other bodily fluids on weekend services - it gets to a point where you wonder why it is worth fitting nice new taps/basins/pans and tolilet seats (as they were when refreshed) if they are just going to be vandalised and abused.

Doing pick-ups, emptying bins and changing bin bags and replenishing consumables such as hand soap, hand towels and toilet roll is perfectly achievable on depot or in traffic, but no staff, on-board or depot based should not be expected have to deal with the daily disgusting state that the PASSENGERS leave the trains and in particular the toilets in....

I spend most of my working day under frame of units/HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), working in residual human waste that is dropped out of the toilet pipes, but you could not pay me enough to handle some of the things that minimum wage MITE contractors do on a nightly basis.

[Electric train]

All of the mess on your videos is caused by the dirty, animal like people who seem to travel on the west fleet.

As someone who has to work in it, both on the West fleet units and the HSS^▸ (High Speed Services), some of the things you find when you open toilet doors is vile and i cannot understand how any civilised human being could create such 'mess'.

Feceses piled up above the height of the toilet pan, used tampons/sanitary towels, aswell as the 'usual' obvious piles of vomit and other bodily fluids on weekend services - it gets to a point where you wonder why it is worth fitting nice new taps/basins/pans and tolilet seats (as they were when refreshed) if they are just going to be vandalised and abused.

Doing pick-ups, emptying bins and changing bin bags and replenishing consumables such as hand soap, hand towels and toilet roll is perfectly achievable on depot or in traffic, but no staff, on-board or depot based should not be expected have to deal with the daily disgusting state that the PASSENGERS leave the trains and in particular the toilets in....

I spend most of my working day under frame of units/HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), working in residual human waste that is dropped out of the toilet pipes, but you could not pay me enough to handle some of the things that minimum wage MITE contractors do on a nightly basis.

Totally agree with sprog's post

[swrural]

Well the human being *is* an animal so perhaps Sprog's first sentence is an unintended insult to other species. 

To achieve the toilet conditions described, there has to be a structural problem in terms of what service is being provided.  The same people travel by air.  Perhaps study of how facilities are managed by airports and airlines could help here?  No such appalling scenes as Sprog describes is evident at airports and planes.

For instance, it was quite clear to me on my last visit through Lulsgate that it was manned by immigrants (mostly EU^» (European Union - about), going by accents of people I engaged in conversation - yes I talk to the people who serve me) and probably on the same wage levels.

So it's not to do with quality or education or attitudes of staff.  Could it be to do with staffing levels and frequency of cleaning?

My last SWT^▸ (South West Trains) trip saw people continually going up and down the trains collecting up rubbish, just like the stewardesses do on the plane.

This site, that I have just discovered. is a mine of information and insight to managers so I do hope they read it.

[Chris from Nailsea]

This site, that I have just discovered. is a mine of information and insight to managers so I do hope they read it.

Thanks for the compliment, swrural, and I can assure you that this forum is read by First Great Western managers - up to and including Director level. 

I know, because I draw it to their attention. 

[BerkshireBugsy]

What ever happened to the principle of specifying station names in full on first reference before using abbreviations (although I still found this post interesting)

[grahame]

What ever happened to the principle of specifying station names in full on first reference before using abbreviations (although I still found this post interesting)

Yeah - I'll be seeing thetrout next Saturday and I'll give him a gentle nudge.   I'm wondering how Tal-y-Cafn comes into it myself 

BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) - Bristol Temple Meads
BTH^» (Bath Spa - next trains) - Bath Spa
CDF^» (Cardiff - next trains) - Cardiff Central
EXD^» (Exeter St Davids - next trains) - Exeter St Davids
FGW^▸ (First Great Western) - Fishguard and Goodwick
FRO^» (Frome - next trains) - Frome
HST^▸ (High Speed Train) - High St (Glasgow)
NLS - Nailsea and Backwell
PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) - London Paddington
PMH - Portsmouth Harbour
SWT^▸ (South West Trains) - Slaithwaite
TLC^▸ (three letter code ) - Tal-y-Cafn
WEY - Weymouth
WSB^» (Westbury - next trains) - Westbury

[Jonty]

It was the NLS that stumped me.

Had no idea that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) ran a direct service from Nailsea to Paddington.

Sounds like they may lose it come electrification...

2 hour commute each way, add say 15 mins each end, that's 5 hours per day, or about 2 months per year of 'awake' time...

[thetrout]

specifying station names in full on first reference

Sorry. I've referenced those stations so many times in the past that I forget to reference them on each occasion. (Although some I did in my defence!) My bad... Duly noted I'll make sure to reference them in full in future

thetrout must remember that his memory for acronyms and various other things isn't always as up to scratch as everyone elses (and that is by no means a dig at anyone. My memory is very good for things such as this )

TLC^▸ (three letter code ) wasn't a station abreviation... Surely you got what I meant... TLC = Tender Loving Care..........

---

Anyway I found Sprogs post most interesting and sadly I have to agree. Having the medical condition which results in frequent toilet breaks (often as many as 3 in an hour ). I myself cannot bring myself to remember the state I have found some toilets in on trains and at stations.

Don't be fooled that the toilets in First Class are any cleaner either... Common misconception... Some of the passengers have the attitude of and I generalise majorly here but...... "I'm loaded and as I pay someone to clean up my mess at home and work, someone else can do it here on this train as thats why they pay cleaners"

Infact, when I was at residential college we had a student in the same year whos attitude was just that. Annoying thing was he was a Day student and didn't live onsite so whenever he 'made a mess' it was never found until he'd gone home and then us students ended up dealing with it He was caught at it one evening by his worst enemy (not me ) and needless to say it was no longer going to be a problem!

My toilet horror stories (and sadly there are far too many) are too much of an occurance to want to complain about each time and Sprog has hit the nail on the head. The toilets do get vandalised far too often and i've lost count of the amount of times i've found a seat not attached to the pan, Toilets out of sanitary supplies etc, Tissue placed in sinks and then filled so it goes all over the floor.

But it comes down to the folk that use them and leave it in that condition. Chris Moyles said on National Radio a few years ago he would never put his backside on a train toilet seat... Well kinda says it all really and sends the wrong message.

And don't get me started on GreaterAnglia or c2c Train Toilets... No... Just. No.

(c2c have one toilet per 4 car unit and every time I catch a train with them it's always broken or completely violated... I sometimes wonder if the staff deliberately leave it in the hope that it will "Become someone elses problem" Oh it does alright... The Passengers who would respect the facility and are desperate but unwilling to use it!

Edit: Typo corrected

[John R]

It was the NLS that stumped me.

Had no idea that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) ran a direct service from Nailsea to Paddington.

Sounds like they may lose it come electrification...

2 hour commute each way, add say 15 mins each end, that's 5 hours per day, or about 2 months per year of 'awake' time...

Apologies, that was me.

I only go half way to Swindon, which is an hour and five mins door to door - much more palatable.

I think there will be an uproar if the North Somerset stations lose their direct services come electrification, not least because the HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s soak up a huge number of passengers going to Bristol. Bi-mode beckons I guess.

Incidentally the Nailsea service to Paddington has been around since the early 70s, so hardly a recent innovation (before anyone reopens the debate about the trend to add more calls to HSTs). 

[Chris from Nailsea]

Had no idea that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) ran a direct service from Nailsea to Paddington.

We used to have a direct Cross Country service to Aberdeen, too ... see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=3385.0 

[thetrout]

uproar if the North Somerset

Perhaps similar to the Pylons from the proposed Hinckley Point C?

And the non approved and fiercely opposed Conveyor (sp?) Belt from Stancombe Lane Quarry to Flax Bourton Rail Yard... in the Late Nineties / Early Noughties

[broadgage]

It is regretably true that a significant minority of passengers leave trains, and in particular train toilets in an appaling state.

However some of the instances refered to above, are at least partly the fault of the railway.
Take the example of the toilet pan filled with s**t. Presumably the first few passengers to leave it like that did at least attempt to flush away the waste, without succes (due to lack of water or other fault)
Even if a passenger ommited to flush, then the next one would presumably try.

Therefore a toilet in the state described is largely the fault of the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) (or the fault of a sub contractor whom they appointed)
Why did it not flush ? Mechanical failure, then fix it. Frequent mechanical failure=defective design, flush toilets have been around for 100 years now so it should be possible to design a reliable and idiot resistant unit.

Lack of water for flushing ? then fill the water tank ! Frequent lack of water=tank too small or intervals between fillings are too great.


Retention tank full ? then empty it !

Retention tank regularly full in service=then either the tank is too small or the intervals between emtpying are too great.

One must expect the odd problem when trains are away from their proper places for servicing due to bad weather etc.
However regular disgusting problems such as described suggest a lack of maintenance, lack of cleaning, or defective design.

There is no excuse for passengers adding needlesly to mess, dirt or filth.
But in the case described of an overfull WC^▸ (Wiltshire Council (Unitary Authority)) pan, what are they meant to do ?
Pull the emergency alarm ? Use the floor ?

[LiskeardRich]

Well the human being *is* an animal so perhaps Sprog's first sentence is an unintended insult to other species. 

To achieve the toilet conditions described, there has to be a structural problem in terms of what service is being provided.  The same people travel by air.  Perhaps study of how facilities are managed by airports and airlines could help here?  No such appalling scenes as Sprog describes is evident at airports and planes.
 

I'm not so sure all the same people travel by air. For starters airlines would reject people if they turn up in such an intoxicated manner as some people are on train services I've observed, especially at the times of day the Poster mentions.