Channel 5 documentary, 'The Railway: First Great Western'

[whole diary]

[didcotdean]

If you put in say Maidenhead to Reading into the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) planner it indicates the cheap day return is valid on the 2:24, but the 3:54 requires an anytime single. However, the restriction code on the CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) is W3 which indicates validity as "DATE ON TICKET UNTIL 0429 THE NEXT MORNING'.

Some inconsistency somewhere ...

[paul7575]

Not really inconsistent, the ticket is valid if bought the day before travel, but AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) shouldn't be available to buy after midnight.  Maybe if you do the same query after 2359 (and on a weekday) it comes up with a different answer?

Paul

[didcotdean]

The journey planner is stating a CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) ticket for a journey starting the day before is not valid for return on the 3:54.

If you look at a return journey that starts after midnight you can still buy a CDR for an outward leg on the 2:24, but no later (until after 9:00).

[paul7575]

Ah, so the assumed error is that the planners are apparently unaware of the change of the day end from 0230 to 0430?

If that is a systematic error across all TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) sites as well as the National Rail one, I wonder what is going on?

Paul

[Rhydgaled]

With my understanding of electronics being lacking, can somebody explain why battery problems stopped the lights working on the sleeper? I thought power for heating, air-con and lighting came from the locomotive (hence you can't use a class 66 on a sleeper as they aren't equiped to supply power to coaches), with batteries only for keeping the lights (and not the heating/cooling) on for half an hour if the loco fails.

[stuving]

With my understanding of electronics being lacking, can somebody explain why battery problems stopped the lights working on the sleeper? I thought power for heating, air-con and lighting came from the locomotive (hence you can't use a class 66 on a sleeper as they aren't equiped to supply power to coaches), with batteries only for keeping the lights (and not the heating/cooling) on for half an hour if the loco fails.

I assumed it was a float battery system - rather like in a car, or a computer uninterruptible supply - and has the lights run off the battery permanently rather than via a switch.

[JayMac]

Looking forward to next week's episode to see the resolution of the, 'kicked up the ass', incident at Newbury. 

An obvious assault caught on camera, but I did chuckle.

[stuving]

The journey planner is stating a CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) ticket for a journey starting the day before is not valid for return on the 3:54.

If you look at a return journey that starts after midnight you can still buy a CDR for an outward leg on the 2:24, but no later (until after 9:00).

Funny. I tried the journey planner, from Slough to Reading, and it offers a CDR at ^8.10 for return up to 05:10, and lists all times of return trains currently being shown as available. If I ask for later return trains, so the first time displayed is 05:10, the CDR is no longer offered ("no return fares available"). So the JP itself appears to know the rule but not to apply the rules correctly.

If you put in say Maidenhead to Reading into the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) planner it indicates the cheap day return is valid on the 2:24, but the 3:54 requires an anytime single. However, the restriction code on the CDR is W3 which indicates validity as "DATE ON TICKET UNTIL 0429 THE NEXT MORNING'.

Some inconsistency somewhere ...

I can't find any words about the day for day returns running up to 04:29 anywhere - not via JP, not in the NRCOC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage), not in the ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) leaflet about tickets. The one place I can find it is the full text of the "General Conditions for this Ticket Type
CDR/CDS^▸ (Off Peak Day Single [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))/FCD/FCR/FRX/FSO^▸ ((in timetables) Friday and Saturday only)/FSX/ GE1/OPF/SVH OFF-PEAK DAY ..." in BRFares. Note, it's not part of the W3 code itself.

This says:
"Off-Peak Day Singles and Returns, GroupSave Day Returns: Valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 0429 the following day, by which time all travel must be completed."
Of course in most other instances, a time limit of validity is for boarding unless it explicitly says "timed to arrive at...", so the full words are needed every time this 04:30 end time is quoted.

So where, officially, am I supposed to find this out?

[grahame]

You'll have seen me talk against returns at 10p more than singles, and day returns, on another thread. I do NOT condone travelling without paying, nor knowingly travelling without a valid ticket ... but the system that's currently set up is anachronistic, hard to find out about in certain circumstances, very unfair at times, and difficult even for the staff to follow when you get into some of the obscure rules / circumstances. 

IF ONLY ... outbound tickets valid for 24 hours from time of issue or start of first journey (whichever is the earlier) ... return portions of such tickets valid on train scheduled to arrive at destination [xxxx] after the outbound start time, subject [off peak / super off peak] to not being available on [the busiest / busy] trains to a published list

Again - not condoning fare dodging, but is it really fair that a trip from Maidenhead for 8 hours out in Reading (and back) should cost 7 pounds if you travel out at 07:00 on Thursday, 5.80 if you travel out at 13:00, and 12 pounds if you travel out at 21:00?

Valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 0429 the following day, by which time all travel must be completed.

Goodness - does that mean that if a train that's scheduled to arrive at 04:20 gets delayed until 04:40, anyone who's using the end of a CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))/CDS^▸ (Off Peak Day Single [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))/FCD/FCR/FRX/FSO^▸ ((in timetables) Friday and Saturday only)/FSX/ GE1/OPF/SVH OFF-PEAK DAY is considered to be travelling without a valid ticket?   Why not "scheduled to arrive" in the rule?

[stuving]

Valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 0429 the following day, by which time all travel must be completed.

Goodness - does that mean that if a train that's scheduled to arrive at 04:20 gets delayed until 04:40, anyone who's using the end of a CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))/CDS^▸ (Off Peak Day Single [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day'))/FCD/FCR/FRX/FSO^▸ ((in timetables) Friday and Saturday only)/FSX/ GE1/OPF/SVH OFF-PEAK DAY is considered to be travelling without a valid ticket?   Why not "scheduled to arrive" in the rule?

Ah - now that is in the Conditions of Carriage:

11. The period during which you can use a ticket
The period during which a ticket is valid is printed on the ticket or will be made clear to you when you buy your ticket. If you use a ticket after the expiry of the ticket^s validity, you may be treated as having joined a train without a ticket and Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

If, as a result of a delay to your train, the validity of the ticket you are using expires during your journey, you will still be allowed to complete that journey. However, in these circumstances, you may not break your journey unless your train is so delayed that a break is reasonably required.

But - note there is no requirement that they provide you with all the restrictions etc. in writing to accompany the ticket, even though this is obviously essential for those of us who can't reliably memorise and recall this kind of stuff, or in case of a change of plan so what you asked for no longer applies ...

Of course once you get rules spread over several sources, you get problems of precedence - quite apart from just finding them all.

NRCOC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) also contains this:

Your obligations
You must:
^ Have a valid ticket or tickets for the whole of your journey, at the time you want to travel and on the route and trains you want to use. Unless otherwise indicated, you must purchase your ticket before boarding the train you intend to use.

I'm sure that, if you are operating in barrack-room lawyer mode, you could have some fun with those "want to" bits.

[Fourbee]

Had to laugh at the passenger last night having a go about lack of ticketing facilities at Reading late at night, then was found with a ticket to Reading West when he allegedly wanted to go to Maidenhead.

I wasn't laughing. As a fare paying passenger and taxpayer I was rather angry that the railways are losing ^1 billion a year through fare evasion seeing how these people operate to avoid paying fares or paying the approriate price and despite some effort on the part of the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) something that will continue...bit like shoplifting I suppose.

Sure the program showed them all having to queue to get a ticket to get through the barrier making out that the surprise of having the barriers closed late a night had foiled the fare dodgers but what tickets were they buying?

Just to clarify, I agree with your sentiments. It was the individual who had the brass neck, I certainly do not find the whole situation funny.

It does seem the application of the rules tapers off as the day/evening wears on. The people who arrived without valid tickets were allowed to purchase them. What about PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'s?

You would encounter a more robust approach if you turned up at Reading during the day IMO^▸ (in my opinion).

[Timmer]

Just to clarify, I agree with your sentiments. It was the individual who had the brass neck, I certainly do not find the whole situation funny.

It does seem the application of the rules tapers off as the day/evening wears on. The people who arrived without valid tickets were allowed to purchase them. What about PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'s?

You would encounter a more robust approach if you turned up at Reading during the day IMO^▸ (in my opinion).

And you knew he wasn't the only one who was doing what he did. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) would easily be able to track the sudden surge of ticket sales to certain destinations around the Reading area whenever they decide to close the barriers late at night, a time when they are most needed and yes you would find a more robust approach at stations during the day when barriers are in operation.

The most fustrating thing is you know the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) know it's happening. If they didn't they sure do now after watching 'The Railway: First Great Western'.

I guess the cost of having RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) out late a night and barriers manned on a consistent basis outweighs the revenue that would be collected.

[stuving]

Funny. I tried the journey planner, from Slough to Reading, and it offers a CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) at ^8.10 for return up to 05:10, and lists all times of return trains currently being shown as available. If I ask for later return trains, so the first time displayed is 05:10, the CDR is no longer offered ("no return fares available"). So the JP itself appears to know the rule but not to apply the rules correctly.

There's been some confusion about this, and I must apologise for added to it - I had the impression if was a Friday night, quite wrongly. The revenue blockade at Reading was actually on a Monday night (29-30 July).

However, if I repeat the exercise for a Monday, the Journey Planner still gives contradictory results.

From Slough, it offers a CDR out up to the 2:04 which arrives at 2:29. Return is possible, it says, up to 2:24, but trains from 9:02 onward are listed as "other trains you can travel on". This is not offered if I ask for these times explicitly, but that list must count as equivalent to asking a booking clerk "what other trains can I come back on".

There are further inconsistencies, especially after using the earlier/later trains buttons, but I suspect I may have broken JP by playing with it too much and a fresh enquiry might give a different result. Which is not really good enough either, of course.

I thought the DSM's advice to passengers was broadly right, about those two main trains at 2:24 and 3:54. (It did say 3:40 in the commentary, but 3:30 was only an example in a post.) What was missing from what we heard him say, though that may be due mainly to the editing, was some of the detail, plus any consideration of how passengers are supposed to know about the time boundaries. By detail, I mean:

• The "end of day" time affects mainly day returns, not "return tickets" as stated or off-peak tickets per se.
  
• A day return should still work on the 3:54 for return to stations as far as Hayes and Harlington.
  

[eightf48544]

Why do we get in such a muddle with conditions for tickets? It seems the railways are terrified of pasengers taking advantage of a cheaper fare than the railway thinks they should pay by being too generous with the validity of their ticket. Hence they tie themselves in knots trying to catch the few pasengers that mught try and take advantage of a too generous time slot for their journey.


DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) day tickets are valid until 03:00 the following day. Stated clearly in the literature often in English no if and buts.

[didcotdean]

Maybe a day return should be valid for a whole day, ie within 24 hours, not part of a day