BBC News: Apology after man told to pay for London train trip twice

[whole diary]

[ellendune]

What he said.

Sets a very bad precedent.

Or a very good one from a customer service point of view.

I know that ignorance of the law is no excuse but millions of people, probably the vast majority of people do not read the condistions and if they did they would not realise the implications. The real problem is that the rules and conditions on ticket sales are so complex is that the whole ticket regime is so complicated.

And where are these conditions set out?  On the small print on the back of the ticket?

It bewilders me why the 'rules are rules' brigade cannot understand the passengers point of view. He is in no way trying to cheat the system.

There are too many rules and a vacuum of common sense in the rail industry.

Couldn't agree more

Graham - exactly.  I was going to write a plus 1 but you summed it up perfectly, but of course you are in business trying actually to please the customer.

Yes customers - aren't they what running a railway is all about?

[EBrown]

So whoever Dan Paynes is...

I suspect Mr. Dan Paynes is acutally the alter ego of Mr. Dan Panes the Communication Development Manager.

[thetrout]

I'm not sure I agree with the rule based on grahame's theory either...

Lets look at it in terms of public transport:

I booked a First Advance from Waterloo - Frome via Salisbury on Sunday. Paid ^11.90 However I found myself at Clapham Junction for 20:45

Now my train departed Waterloo at 21:20 and called for Pick Up Only at Clapham Junction. So common sense, I've paid from Waterloo - Salisbury so why couldn't I get on at Clapham Junction? Save going all the way up and back again

Well because the rule said so. In fact the rule says I have to take at Train from CLJ to WAT to catch a train 45 minutes later from WAT that is going to come back through CLJ again!

Well of course, having a Travelcard, I did exactly this and went up to Waterloo so my ticket was valid on that train

Talk about inefficiency.............

However I do admit in the past (unknowingly as I was in my younger years) to joining a train short on an Advance Ticket... However as trainer pointed out... I wasn't aware of the rules. My understanding at the time was simple: On 10:00 train or buy new ticket. However fellow posters on this forum brought the extra rules to my attention of which I have been forever grateful

There have also been occasions (the amount I can count on one hand) where I have missed a booked train and the staff onboard have shown excellent discretion and passed it.

The only occasion where no such discretion was shown when it really ought to have been was when I missed a booked train at Paddington because of a late inbound cancelled and next train very late inbound National Express East Coast service meaning I missed I well and truly missed the booked train... I asked the TM^‡(resolve) if they were not happy to check it with control (they refused to call them) to write me up an Unpaid Fares Notice (That was refused as well). Needless to say a formal complaint was sent off which had more than the desired effect...

[Trowres]

I don't have the time to look for examples at the moment but I was once told the reason for the rule was to even up loadings on trains.

For example a train coming from London to Cornwall would be priced higher east of Plymouth than trains which terminated at Plymouth to encourage people to use the latter if they were not going into Cornwall and thus spread the numbers and give Cornwall travellers a chance to get a seat.  

I am sure someone can prove or disprove this theory.

Of all the possible justifications for the advance fare rule, this would be the one likely to invoke the most passenger sympathy. However a quick check of a suitable peak time - Friday 1st March at  17:00 - reveals that the Paddington-Penzance departures feature advance fares to Taunton, Exeter, Plymouth in addition to Penzance. The fares rise with distance, so there's no need to invoke the "no stopping short" rule.

The Penzance services don't stop at Westbury, but there are advance fares available on the services that do (including the solitary example via a change at Swindon)... EXCEPT the PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-Frome service, for which the anytime fare of ^76.00 is quoted. Much better to go for ^24.50 on the 18:33 Plymouth service.

So not much sign there of alleviating overcrowding.

[ellendune]

So the reason that the conditions are not printed (in readable text) on the back of the ticket is that the ticket would no longer go through the automatic barriers - given that they are 30 pages of A4!

I can download them from a website, or I suppose someone will tell me that they are on a poster in some dark corner of my local station.  

Have I missed large notices saying how it important that I get a copy and read them?

Perhaps, to quote from Douglas Adams:

"But Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine months."

"Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn't exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them, had you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything."

"But the plans were on display ..."

"On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them."

"That's the display department."

"With a torch."

"Ah, well the lights had probably gone."

"So had the stairs."

"But look, you found the notice didn't you?"

"Yes," said Arthur, "yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'."

Are conditions of carriage that are so closely guarded a secret really enforceable in law?  I suspect they are, but I suspect they should not be!

Now if some key points were printed on the ticket e.g. "only valid when joining the train at Newton Abbot" or "Not valid from intermediate stations" then the condition might seem more reasonable. 

[John R]

Don't passengers get the ticket in a small folder that sets out the conditions of Advance tickets very clearly? And if booking on line they are set out clearly there and in the confirmatory email?

[thetrout]

Don't passengers get the ticket in a small folder that sets out the conditions of Advance tickets very clearly? And if booking on line they are set out clearly there and in the confirmatory email?

Nope... Well not in my experience anyway:

• Ask for Advanced Ticket.
• Accept ticket price* and proceed to book.
• Told I must catch yada yada train or new ticket.
• Pay.
• Request Receipt and Take Tickets.
• Leave.

   
* If ticket price is fairly near a walk-up price. Decline and purchase on day of travel.

But I guess asking a Ticket Clerk for a First Advance on the 21:50 for tomorrow probably implies you know the restrictions already

[JayMac]

The T&Cs for Advance Purchase tickets are neither a closely guarded secret nor 30 pages of A4. They are contained in a small ticket sized 2 page leaflet if you purchase from a station, and are less than one full webpage of text if buying online. If for some reason you don't get, or fail to check, either of those then I'm afraid caveat emptor comes into play. Ask before travel (and not at the intermediate station!) Don't subsequently try and wing it.

https://tickets.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/gw/en/tickettandc/W/WAS.aspx

I assume the 30 pages of A4 you are referring to is the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. If you comply with the few lines of text provided when being sold an Advance Purchase ticket then there's no need to to even look at the NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage).

When you are provided, at point of sale, with the following...

You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary

... I see no need for 'some key points' to be printed on the ticket.

[grahame]

Don't passengers get the ticket in a small folder that sets out the conditions of Advance tickets very clearly?

Not if collecting from a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)  ...

And if booking on line they are set out clearly there and in the confirmatory email?

Not got the booking screen in front of me, but from my confirmation email for last Sunday:

Journey: 1 Bradford On Avon to Newport S.Wales
Ticket type: Advance Valid only on your chosen service. Not refundable. Changeable prior to date of travel for a fee.
Route: First Great Western Trains Only
Outward journey: 17 Feb 2013
departs Bradford On Avon at 16:12 travel by Train service provider First Great Western to station Newport S.Wales arrives 17:29 ( seats reserved: Coach: A Seats: 55 )

Nothing ANYWHERE in that email to say I couldn't have gotten on to the same train at Bath instead .... and not really sure why it says "First Great Western Trains Only" when the only train its valid on is ... a specific FGW^▸ (First Great Western) train.

Seeing as all that lot appears in the email, I hate to disagree with BNM but I think it would be fair for a reasonable person to ensure that what's stated is all the rules.   Nowhere does the email say that it's just a summary of some of the terms and I can find the rest at your URL 

[grahame]

Just gone most of the way through a booking on the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) site:

Origin:London Paddington, 21:45
Destination:Chippenham, 23:03
Date:Thu 21 Feb 2013 Changes:0 Duration:1:18hrs
Valid only on your chosen service. Not refundable. Changeable prior to date of travel for a fee.

Clear again ... nothing to say I can't get on at Reading instead ... in fact "only on your chosen service" rather suggests that I can join and leave any time from 21:40 when they announce the platform at PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) to 23:03 when that particular train gets to Chippenham

[JayMac]

There's nothing in that summary that says you can get on at Reading either. What it 'rather suggests' is open to interpretation. That's why there are clear Terms & Conditions, where what you can and can't do is laid out in fairly plain English with little room for any interpretation you may wish to make.

Did you not look at the the Terms & Conditions, grahame? It takes but one click.

Should the T&Cs (or a link to them) be in your confirmation email? Perhaps. But they were there to be read before you agreed the transaction.

I'm all for exploiting loopholes and anomalies to save money or work around restrictions, but with Advance Purchase tickets it is quite clear. Origin to destination as shown on the ticket, no breaks, no starting/ending short, and only on the service as booked. If more flexibility is required, then a more flexible ticket should be purchased.

[bobm]

Don't passengers get the ticket in a small folder that sets out the conditions of Advance tickets very clearly?

Not if collecting from a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)  ...

Except that the only advance tickets you can get from a TVM are the ones you collect after you book on line where you are told what the conditions are.

[thetrout]

Just to be awkward and for a different outlook...

What if you didn't book the tickets but collected them from the station or TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) to make the journey yourself?

That being said, isn't there a T&C Clause that states that the one who books the tickets must be making the journey... I'm sure I've seen that somewhere??!

[IndustryInsider]

I'm all for exploiting loopholes and anomalies to save money or work around restrictions, but with Advance Purchase tickets it is quite clear. Origin to destination as shown on the ticket, no breaks, no starting/ending short, and only on the service as booked. If more flexibility is required, then a more flexible ticket should be purchased.

Moving away from the discussion about whether enough warnings are given when you buy the ticket, I'll ask the obvious question:

If a passenger was allowed to start/end short on an advance ticket under the T&C as long as they travelled on the train they're booked on (with a caveat that they might not have their reserved seat) what potential revenue would be lost by the operator, and how would capacity on the train and/or advance purchase quotas be affected?  Is it really a big issue as long as they travel on the same train they're booked on?  Surely if their are any gains they would be exploited by such a small number of individuals as to make it pretty negligible in the grand scheme of things, in the same way that split ticketing has a tiny effect on overall revenue?

From a customer service standpoint, I can pretty much guarantee that if I asked five random friends of mine that don't travel regularly by train for their opinion, they would all think it's pretty ridiculous that starting/ending short isn't allowed.

[grahame]

Except that the only advance tickets you can get from a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) are the ones you collect after you book on line where you are told what the conditions are.

If you've clicked on the "i" button and scrolled all the way down    

I know / agree that the conditions are "full bought journey only" ... I just think (and clearly not everyone agrees) that's not obvious from what pops up on the screen in the course of a booking procedure the way most people probably do it.  But then most people buy from "A" to "E" an wouldn't normally consider getting on at "B" or off at "D" instead.

Just to be awkward and for a different outlook...

What if you didn't book the tickets but collected them from the station or TVM to make the journey yourself?

That being said, isn't there a T&C Clause that states that the one who books the tickets must be making the journey... I'm sure I've seen that somewhere??!

No - the tickets can be bought by anyone.  What you mustn't do is buy them for one person and let another use them. "Must be used by the person for whom they were bought" I think is the term, with an exception allowing a company to buy them and the decide later which employee is travelling.  Never make it simple if you can make it complex!